Clico - End of an Era

[D_W]

There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them.

There's enough market that I think that was a mistake, as LN had employed at least 80 people making mostly planes by the time I got into woodworking.

I'd have liked to have tried one of their irons back when I had premium planes, but they were always priced at the moon here, like $80 or $100 or more if a cap iron was included, and I could never see on in person anywhere which wasn't the case for other things.

A shame they couldn't continue making.

 

[Vann]

A shame they couldn't continue making.

It's a good thing they sold off the planemaking division as a going concern.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them.

There's enough market that I think that was a mistake, as LN had employed at least 80 people making mostly planes by the time I got into woodworking.

I'd have liked to have tried one of their irons back when I had premium planes, but they were always priced at the moon here, like $80 or $100 or more if a cap iron was included, and I could never see on in person anywhere which wasn't the case for other things.

A shame they couldn't continue making.

Dayam DW (for us Yanks, I keep thinking of NASCAR's Daryl Waltrip's use of DW as his screen initials), I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles and I have a Clifton #3 that is my favorite smoother. I also have several of the Clico 2 piece chipbreakers on other planes, as the design facilitates easy, frequent honing. You may also want to take a look at the Ray Isles (I believe) carbon steel irons. I put one in a 60-1/2 that needed a need blade and I like everything about it (though a statement about a block plane blade does not say much!).

I'm not sure of the exact composition of Clifton's "forged" blades or Ray Isles' carbon steel, but both have a far better feel than any A2 and most US replacement irons, seeming closer to vintage Sheffield steels. Instead of reinventing the wheel for replacement irons, might be nice if a US maker would just duplicate irons of old?

So DW, why not stroll down the road to the Ross Park Rockler and convince the clerks to get a few Clico irons and chipbreakers on the shelf? Those guys are all woodworkers and a couple of them are handtool guys. Failing that, I might have to send you my #3 to try for a week or two.

T.Z.

 

[custard]

I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles

80 or 90 miles is not "just up the road". That's a major expedition requiring a lot of planning and probably a packed lunch!

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles

80 or 90 miles is not "just up the road". That's a major expedition requiring a lot of planning and probably a packed lunch!

Nah! I'm in his area at least once a week, sometimes more (you UK guys got to remember we put the "horse & carriages" out to pasture at least a year or two ago over here in the "new world"!).

 

[D_W]

There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them.

There's enough market that I think that was a mistake, as LN had employed at least 80 people making mostly planes by the time I got into woodworking.

I'd have liked to have tried one of their irons back when I had premium planes, but they were always priced at the moon here, like $80 or $100 or more if a cap iron was included, and I could never see on in person anywhere which wasn't the case for other things.

A shame they couldn't continue making.

Dayam DW (for us Yanks, I keep thinking of NASCAR's Daryl Waltrip's use of DW as his screen initials), I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles and I have a Clifton #3 that is my favorite smoother. I also have several of the Clico 2 piece chipbreakers on other planes, as the design facilitates easy, frequent honing. You may also want to take a look at the Ray Isles (I believe) carbon steel irons. I put one in a 60-1/2 that needed a need blade and I like everything about it (though a statement about a block plane blade does not say much!).

I'm not sure of the exact composition of Clifton's "forged" blades or Ray Isles' carbon steel, but both have a far better feel than any A2 and most US replacement irons, seeming closer to vintage Sheffield steels. Instead of reinventing the wheel for replacement irons, might be nice if a US maker would just duplicate irons of old?

So DW, why not stroll down the road to the Ross Park Rockler and convince the clerks to get a few Clico irons and chipbreakers on the shelf? Those guys are all woodworkers and a couple of them are handtool guys. Failing that, I might have to send you my #3 to try for a week or two.

T.Z.

Those guys are hand tool workers? I haven't been in there a lot, but it is literally a couple of minutes away. When I first went there, they had hock irons and all kinds of stuff, but it's slowly disappeared in favor of plastic router gadgets and pen kits.

I see looking online that clifton's irons were priced in the UK more like what we're used to here for premium irons, that someone between the manufacturer and here added the upcharge.

Pretty sure they're O1, there's not much else in inexpensive carbon steel other than various varieties of chrome vanadium, and I doubt it's those.

I like the look of the irons, though I'll admit when I saw the stock weight for the clifton #4, I know I wouldn't be a buyer for it. (5.3 pounds). I think the stanley 4 that I've come to love so much weighs right around 3, and I'm getting too lazy for heavy planes.

You should stop by sometime over the winter when you're down here, if you're at rockler you could almost walk to my house.

 

[Jelly]

Pretty sure they're O1, there's not much else in inexpensive carbon steel other than various varieties of chrome vanadium, and I doubt it's those.

Au contraire, being that they're in the steel city; there are still dozens of foundries which produce proprietary alloys of tool steel to meet customer requirements. My estimation is there are 3-4 companies whose metallurgists could produce a steel to fit whatever properties clifton want for the irons, within a 20 minute walk from them.

Tool steel is not limited to the defined ASIS-SAE grades of steel, and indeed in the UK it would be manufactured to a BS or EN standard anyway.

 

[D_W]

Hey, I'm in the Steel City, too, just in the US. We have some small specialty mills here still, and stainless and titanium mills, but not much "regular stuff"

If the clico stuff isn't O1, I'd venture a guess that it's pretty close - something oil hardening, something around 1% carbon and not too too much of anything else even if things like silicon and vanadium are tweaked a little bit.

I should've been more specific in saying that "there's not much else" to mean that it's probably not air hardening steel (or we'd have heard complaints about sharpening somewhere and they wouldn't refer to it as carbon steel), it's definitely not stainless, and it's extremely unlikely that it's water hardening steel.

So some variation of oil hardening diemaking steel.

 

[Jelly]

Hey, I'm in the Steel City, too, just in the US. We have some small specialty mills here still, and stainless and titanium mills, but not much "regular stuff"

That sounds familiar, most of sheffields output is now superalloys, stainless, and gigantic and/or hideously complex castings and forgings which no-one else makes, though there are two big continuous casting mills still.

So some variation of oil hardening diemaking steel.

That seems like a reasonable assumption; if my understanding is correct the little variations from "standard" combined with a treatment process designed to exploit them can make for a superior product. I'm now tempted to pop in and ask them next time I have a day off (the new owners of Clifton are just down the road from me here), though that could, equally be an expensive decision.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Thomas Flinn's website says the new Clifton iron is cryogenically treated O1. The old wonky stamped iron was hand forged O1, as seen on "How it's made".

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thomas Flinn's website says the new Clifton iron is cryogenically treated O1. The old wonky stamped iron was hand forged O1, as seen on "How it's made".

Just adding a little to that, three sizes of iron are available (the usual 1 3/4", 2" and 2 3/8") and all cost £28-50 each, which is just about half the cost of the old, discontinued forged ones.

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... ml#SID=454

 

[D_W]

They look like something that could've been made by the french, as our US marketed hock irons are.

You guys love the french right?

I only know English people here (and they are very specific that it's English and not British) who have been here a long time, so I won't repeat what they say for risk of it having gone the way of Robertsons trinkets.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

They look like something that could've been made by the french, as our US marketed hock irons are.

You guys love the french right?

I only know English people here (and they are very specific that it's English and not British) who have been here a long time, so I won't repeat what they say for risk of it having gone the way of Robertsons trinkets.

Let's not be nasty about the French. They're in a bad way economically, and their best Champagnes were comprehensively trounced in a recent blind tasting by sparkling wines grown and made in Sussex, so they're a bit sore (tee hee!). Not only that, but it was recently discovered that Britain produces more varieties of artisan cheese than France does, so they're a bit sore about that, too.

They're not all bad. Liogier rasps are absolutely top notch, and Auriou stuff is pretty damn good too. That's about it, though.

 

[D_W]

I've got some french stuff that I like quite a bit. They were, at one point, fairly good at making razors, but more recent efforts have been a bit lazy looking.

My best English friend who is a woodworker is put off each time he sees the my french wares.

I'd say that they (the french) have a penchant for fine quality carbon steel, but they like it a bit soft in their tools. Had it would be more accurate.

I've had some English food, including blancmange (of English origin) - if you guys are beating them, they must be a in a bad way!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't really think an American should be criticising British food. Or anyone else's come to that.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Dayam D.W. When we going to get a good washita thread going here? For me, I've been concentrating on my 3 Spyderco's since you were last on SMC, and my oilstones are now pretty lonely!

 

[D_W]

I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.

One thing I did in secret was sell off the washitas that I'm not using (I gave a couple away, too). That leaves me about about 4, not because I use 4, but because two are unmarked stones and odd (one is narrow and the other is short). My two favorites turned out to be not labeled, and I've used them for everything but a very few items (you'd be surprised how well they do with a japanese chisel has a wrought iron back - the fact that the chisel is harder just means the edge is finer).

I know there's an appreciation (or at least was at one time) in the UK for the type since there are so many on ebay originating there, but they're at a premium, too. I love them, they sharpen everything nicely.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.

One thing I did in secret was sell off the washitas that I'm not using (I gave a couple away, too). That leaves me about about 4, not because I use 4, but because two are unmarked stones and odd (one is narrow and the other is short). My two favorites turned out to be not labeled, and I've used them for everything but a very few items (you'd be surprised how well they do with a japanese chisel has a wrought iron back - the fact that the chisel is harder just means the edge is finer).

I know there's an appreciation (or at least was at one time) in the UK for the type since there are so many on ebay originating there, but they're at a premium, too. I love them, they sharpen everything nicely.

Passed on a Norton Queercreek stone this past weekend. Was fairly flat, but had a few nicks. Flea market guy wanted $40 for it, no case, and wouldn't budge to the $10 I offered. Have a smaller NOS Norton Queercreek in a box, with label, somewhere in my accumulation. Never have used one though.

As far as the Spyderco's go, I like them: Jury was out for months on the "Ultrafine", but after at six months of regular use, a few flattenings on a diamond plate, in spite of being artificial, either it or me has settled into how it works best and I get a great edge. Unlike most American woodworking forums, the UK guys don't get the shorts in a knot talking about the latest jigs etc. Much, much more practical about the craft, which is very refreshing, and I suspect most here roll their eyes at some of our Yankee bloggers.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.

Sharpening is as contentious a subject in the UK as it is anywhere else in the woodworking world.

There probably are quite a few oilstones about, but there are plenty using waterstones, diamond stones, ceramics and scary sharp, and there's a mix of high-speed bench grinders, wet grinders and few hand-crank devotees. Old hands have found their preferred method and stick with it in general, but things are tricky for newer woodworkers because there's so much conflicting information about, and so much variety in the tool catalogues. Then, of course, there's the jig or freehand debate - there are adherents to both approaches.

Going back to Victorian times (mid 19th century and earlier) there were not many options. Big natural sandstone hand-crank or treadle grinders in some larger shops, coarse rub-stones in others. To finish an edge, some used the local natural stones (Charnley Forest being a common one - gave a very good egde, but slowly), others preferred the more expensive imported Turkey stones. There were also fine finishers like Tam O'Shanters, Water of Ayr and several Welsh slate hones. A few Arkansas hones crept in, too, but as they've always been expensive stones in the UK, they aren't as common as in the States.

As artificial stones started to become available - many from North America - the local natural stones were abandoned quite rapidly (that would be from about 1880 onwards). The combination Norton India eventually became almost the default choice of most tradesmen until the introduction of waterstones in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and then ceramics, diamonds and lapping films.

 

[D_W]

There are a lot of sandstone wheels here - most people use them for yard art. It wouldn't be hard to get one if willing to look around (space is more of an issue than anything). I've never seen large rub stones here like the ones that are in books.

I've had my share of English stones (slates and a charn), but I haven't come across a good WOA or razor graded Tam. WOA were used here extensively, but by people doing silver work. The washita and hard ark ruled here until carborundum corp and whoever else started making silicon carbide and al-ox stones, same as the UK. There are a lot of old little-used carborundum corp stones (it's pretty easy to find that silicon carbide doesn't make a very desirable edge), but the india types look more used. I often wonder what the buyers of those all silicon carbide stones think when they got them and paid as much or almost as much as a nice washita stone would've cost.

I'm 100% super fascinated with the various stones from around the world and have a whole pile of them, including some of the newer synthetics. But I don't follow what magazines or whatever recommends, because it's always just going to be some unnecessary jig and whatever sharpening stones just came out of the port brought in by some distributor.