Circular rebates

[dandrew26]

Esteemed Galooterati,

having been a long-time lurker I now have a sufficiently knotty problem that you may be able to help with.

I am currently working on the top rail of a front door that will received leaded light top panels that have semi-circular and shouldered heads.
Accordingly I need to work a circular rebate (30mm wide, 10mm deep, radius 50 mm) into the rail to hold the glass. Unfortunately no electrons are available.

Cassel's Carpentry & Joinery recommend cutting a small groove along the curve with a quirk router and then removing the waste with a 'bent chisel'. Although I have the router (a Preston) the chisel is one I haven't come across, and I have not been able to find a modern equivalent. I have been using a circular hand router (Preston again), but the work is hard (especially across the grain), slow, and I have worn 2 nice blisters into my hands.

Are there any alternative hand methods for working such a rebate, or will I just have to put up with blisters until the I've finished ?

 

[Racers]

Hi,
How about a expanding bit in a brace you will have to clamp some scrap in for the center, I cut a 2 1/4" hole in a oak outside table for a large umberlla with one and made a cup for the end, it was hard going I need a brace with a larger sweep!!

Pete

 

[White House Workshop]

For 'bent' chisels go to Ashley Isles. I think what you may be refering to is a spoon gouge, or a dogleg chisel? He does them in many sizes.
http://www.ashleyiles.turningtools.co.uk/

Alternatively, could you use a router base that will enable you to cut in an arc/circle? Most fancy bases have this capability. Your arc seems pretty small, though at 50mm radius? How about a dremel with the router base attachment? I have one and it works a treat on small jobs.

 

[Anonymous]

Hard to say without a snap but it sounds the sort of thing you'd cheat on
e.g. make the glass panels simple rectangles which are then partially covered at the front either with inserted shaped pieces or with cut out shape in the door itself, the rebate at the back being rectangular and again covered to form the shape.
It's quite common in trad joinery when complicated shaped glazing or panels are involved.

cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

Esteemed Galooterati,

having been a long-time lurker I now have a sufficiently knotty problem that you may be able to help with.

I am currently working on the top rail of a front door that will received leaded light top panels that have semi-circular and shouldered heads.
Accordingly I need to work a circular rebate (30mm wide, 10mm deep, radius 50 mm) into the rail to hold the glass. Unfortunately no electrons are available.

Cassel's Carpentry & Joinery recommend cutting a small groove along the curve with a quirk router and then removing the waste with a 'bent chisel'. Although I have the router (a Preston) the chisel is one I haven't come across, and I have not been able to find a modern equivalent. I have been using a circular hand router (Preston again), but the work is hard (especially across the grain), slow, and I have worn 2 nice blisters into my hands.

Are there any alternative hand methods for working such a rebate, or will I just have to put up with blisters until the I've finished ?

When I needed a VERY large recess in my bench top (for a Woden hold-down washer), I marked the recess with a washer cutter in a brace, then removed waste with chisels and a #722 router.

I proceeded in roughly 3mm stages until my desired depth was achieved.

BugBear

 

[Alf]

Esteemed Galooterati,

Ooo, I like that attitude Welcome!

<snip>I have the router (a Preston) <snippage> I have been using a circular hand router (Preston again) <snip>

Cripes, right in there with the gloatworthy stuff. :shock:

Cheating sounds like a good option (really a 30mm wide rebate? Seems an awful lot :-k ) but if not possible, removing the bulk with a chisel is evidentally going to speed things up so much it's gotta be worth getting hold of one that'll do the job if a regular one won't do the necessary. Any of the carving tool manufacturers should have something suitable I'd have thought; a short cranked paring chisel is probably too long. Doing any kind of rebate, housing etc solely using a router is indeed a slow and blistering experience.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scott]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[dandrew26]

Many thanks for the prompt responses.

Jacob's idea sound like a good alternative, but unfortunately the leaded lights are already made with the semi-circular heads, so the potential for cheating is eliminated.

Cheating sounds like a good option (really a 30mm wide rebate? Seems an awful lot )

Ahem, , during making the stiles a mistake was made with the moulding plane that worked the ovolo, so it was stuck on the face side, rather than the face edge as is usual. Unfortunately it mean't that the mistake had to be continued to maintain the appearance

I'll try Ashley Iles for some sort of dog-leg chisel, as a spoon gouge will leave a rebate with a hollow bottom (oo, err missus)

Thanks,

David

 

[Alf]

David, sorry I mentioned it - although it's just a Design Opportunity as we're all well aware...

Don't worry too much if all you can get is a gouge of some sort, just look on it as the "roughing plane" and as you'll be following up with the router anyway no probs. If you have to means to take a pic I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see.

Cheers, Alf

 

[ydb1md]

Esteemed Galooterati,

Ooo, I like that attitude Welcome!

<snip>I have the router (a Preston) <snippage> I have been using a circular hand router (Preston again) <snip>

Cripes, right in there with the gloatworthy stuff. :shock:


Cheers, Alf

What is a circular hand router? :-k

 

[Scrit]

A nightmare cross between a spoke shave, a scratch stock and lord alone knows what else? One version is like this althouigh there are a number of variations. Killed off by the onward march of the spindle moulder and later by the electric router, methinks, although Stanley did try the spectacularly unsuccesful #196 (see bottom of page). I love Patrick's comment, " 'Too stupid and too late' is this tool's epitaph. "

Scrit

 

[Benchwayze]

I am currently working on the top rail of a front door that will received leaded light top panels that have semi-circular and shouldered heads.
Accordingly I need to work a circular rebate (30mm wide, 10mm deep, radius 50 mm) into the rail to hold the glass. Unfortunately no electrons are available.
Are there any alternative hand methods for working such a rebate, or will I just have to put up with blisters until the I've finished ?

Dan,
I think you will need a tool called the Technikos. No longer made, but someone might have one loafing around in a drawer.

I have a picture of one, from a 1958 Woodworker Advert, but I don't know how to post images. PM me your email and I will send it to you, so you know what to look for.

Then try a Google and see what you come up with. Maybe Pennyfarthing have one.

Good Luck
John

 

[Scrit]

I think you will need a tool called the Technikos. No longer made, but someone might have one loafing around in a drawer.

John

The tool you are referring to is called a Tektool (or according to Salaman a Tectool), but unfortunately I don't think it won't work a 50mm radius. I've got a rusty one somewhere in a drawer and it won't work such a tight radius as the two cutters are both somewhere about an inch or so long and they'd foul on the main body of the workpiece. In addition the cutters aren'yt long enough to work a 30mm land. I'll see idf I can find a photograph of the item in the morning and post it. If nothing else I've found illustrations and can post those

Dandrew - joking aside a 50mm or 2in radius is pretty small and in the absence of electric I think Jacob's approach is what a joiner would do (I've seen a couple of examples like that in Edwardian doors). Have you thought about taking the door off, putting a temporary replacement in its place and removing the item to where you do have power? Seems less work to my way of thinking. Taking the recess out by hand is a huge amount of work and I can't see a trad joiner ever doing this because 30mm seems far too wide for a stratch stock or any sort of carraige router, which seem designed to be little more than wide purfling tools. Was the original done that way? The only "tool" I could think of to do the job would be a French head on a spindle moulder.

Scrit

 

[Mirboo]

I posted some scans of the Tectool Two-Cutter Plough Plane a while back. The scans are from old copies of Woodworker magazine. Here is the original thread.

 

[Scrit]

Ian

Yes, that's the same tool I've got a photograph of (same photo!) and also a line drawing - I just can't show them because Photobucket is down :twisted: I was persuaded to buy one for my dad as a birthday present. It was obviously a useful tool as he sharpened it once, used it ,oiled it then put it away for 30 years - I'm having a similar experience with it having tried to use it once about 10 years back and having been left completely underwhelmed by the experience.....

Ah, that's better, PB has just come back:

Scrit

 

[Chris Knight]

Flycutter on the drill press?

 

[dandrew26]

Thanks to everyone for the additional suggestions.

The best method was based on one suggested by Alf.

In the end I worked a small quirk on the face edge to the depth of the rebate. The waste was then chopped out to just short of the finish line with a firmer chisel and a spoon chisel to cope with the curve. Finishing was with the circular router which worked a treat and it took less than half the time of just using the router alone.

The Tektool looks formidable and I shall be giving it a wide berth.

I am now struggling with moulding the face side to match the ovolo worked on the rails and stiles. I have been using a sash ovolo hand router which is fine along the grain but produces crazy tear-out across the grain. So there has been a lot of cleaning up. I've been using a scratch stock with a matched cutter - do I need to work a hook on the cutting edge like a card scaper ?. The finish is acceptable as it is but could be better (stuff is Southern Yellow Pine and will be painted).

Thanks,

David

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Scrit.

Yes that's the tool (In the advert in my copy of the same issue it is advertised as a Technikos, in the back cover ads. )
The 1958 copy with the wheelwright on the cover Yes?

I remembered it as a Tectool, but Google didn't know what I was on about, so I dug out that copy of The Woodworker, and found what I found!
So I am not sure it would do the job now!

Oh well, such are the memory cells, but if I could post the scan I did, you would see that it is described as a 'Technikos'. Maybe there were two different makes?

 

[Anonymous]

This isn't very helpful but if you are having to buy special tools, particularly these obsolete items which were never much used anyway ('cos they were literally almost useless), then you are doing it the wrong way.
Looking on the bright side at least its a lesson; the conclusion being IMHO that if you want to know how to do something in woodwork always look first at the way it was done traditionally, before you embark on a bodge of your own devising, or buy a range of near useless tools which you will never use again.
I'm sure it will look lovely though when you've finished !

cheers
Jacob