Chisel sharpening – you’re all doing it wrong!

[D_W]

At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.

David, I agree with you, but I do not know what to suggest. The problem is that you and I have neither the prominence nor the importance as woodworkers to influence a newcomer. Someone such as David Charlesworth could. Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz clearly do amongst their minions. Actually, I take that back - I offer up a build along, and someone will see the nice tools I use and imagine that my good work is due to them. And you will talk about Norris planes on forums, and the message is that they are wonderful and offer an advantage. We are all guilty of promoting the fantasy of excellence through expensive tools. We bought into this ourselves when we started out. Not knowing what was good and what to buy, we sought to emulate our heros.

The fact is that there are a lot of high quality tools around these days. Some are shiny and new and others are diamonds in the rust. Many of the followers on forums I occasionally visit just wish to belong to a club. And the very basic pieces they make satisfy their inner woodworker (I watched a guy build a simple face grain cutting board - thicknessing, glueing and cutting - using many thousands of Dollars of high end power equipment. He was very happy. Try telling him that it could all be done with a #4 Stanley).

Were you ready to be told about Stanley planes and chipbreakers 10 years ago? What if I had said to you that you did not need the hundreds of sharpening stones you went through, and just needed two? Would you have listened? :lol:

I think that there is irony in the reaction of the followers of Paul Sellers. Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options. Perhaps they will one day if they continue. Experience is earned, not taught or bought.

As I stated earlier, I do not have an answer. I find some the comments here and elsewhere bordering on the religiose. Intolerance (snide comments) turns me off. My preference is to discuss pros and cons, method of use, and illustrate these when possible. There is not enough of this, I feel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I can't really disagree with much or any of that. I think it's sort of a lost cause, and everyone has to see for themselves. That's partly my problem, I have to see it for myself.

If I said on 10 posts that I'm only really buying infills to have patterns to copy, it still doesn't sink in. I can say that the expensive later norris panel plane that I bought is really not that bad, it's almost as good as the $25 stanley 6 that I found in an antique store, but not quite. Maybe it would be as good as the stanley if it didn't have an adjuster, except the stanley adjuster system is a good one, so maybe not! That part gets missed.

I wish I hadn't bought any of the norris planes with adjusters, because I'll lose a little money when I sell them, but I just have to see everything for myself, I guess.

 

[Jacob]

I have to see it for myself too!
I've also regretted buying several (modern) planes with Norris adjusters. They look such a good idea and such a tidy design. But they are hopeless. I don't imagine they are any better on the original Norris planes.
It's a learning curve and it's a good thing to realise how utterly superb the Stanley design is, compared to all the alternatives, even when there are two or more complete turns of slack in the wheel.
In fact Stanley themselves seemed completely unaware of what the had when they produced their recent "premium" planes ; well made, good materials, but really stupid retro design with useless Norris adjusters. Madness!

 

[iNewbie]

I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...

Or you could literally buy 10 records in the UK and keep the best one and then resell the other 9.

That would take some time, though, but I doubt you'd get to 10 before you found a really good one that didn't need much. One of my best working planes is a war-time 6 (stanley) that I found here in the states nearly unused for $25. Stanley planes don't always show up particularly flat once they're old, but this one did, and the adjuster is a treat.

I don't have an aversion to old planes -I'm looking for one now, but if it fell on the floor and broke I'd be looking for another one to likely restore when LN would happily replace it... You know how Jacob is about saving time when it comes to sharpening. :wink:

 

[DoctorWibble]

I doubt any tool company would replace something that broke because you dropped it. I have an LN chisel that became divorced from its handle after three years. Without ever being dropped or abused in any way. Poor really given methods for attaching chisel handles that last have been around for a very long time. Out of warranty of course. I'm just glad I only bought the one.

 

[D_W]

I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...

Or you could literally buy 10 records in the UK and keep the best one and then resell the other 9.

That would take some time, though, but I doubt you'd get to 10 before you found a really good one that didn't need much. One of my best working planes is a war-time 6 (stanley) that I found here in the states nearly unused for $25. Stanley planes don't always show up particularly flat once they're old, but this one did, and the adjuster is a treat.

I don't have an aversion to old planes -I'm looking for one now, but if it fell on the floor and broke I'd be looking for another one to likely restore when LN would happily replace it... You know how Jacob is about saving time when it comes to sharpening. :wink:

I don't think they'd replace it, but the worst that would probably happen is breaking a handle (and they may comp you that), bending an adjuster or having a spot to file off on the casting.

Stanley planes don't always break when you drop them, but they often do as do old wooden planes (they're OK unless they land on the handle, which is probably the way most of them get broken).

I dropped my favorite stanley 4 last week on a concrete floor and I was mortified, but I lucked out and it landed right on the nose and no damage.

At any rate, LN planes are nice planes (just wish they'd have been wise enough to keep the stanley sprung cap iron design, even if they felt the need to make it look heavier to impress beginners), and you get what pleases you in the end.

 

[D_W]

I have to see it for myself too!
I've also regretted buying several (modern) planes with Norris adjusters. They look such a good idea and such a tidy design. But they are hopeless. I don't imagine they are any better on the original Norris planes.
It's a learning curve and it's a good thing to realise how utterly superb the Stanley design is, compared to all the alternatives, even when there are two or more complete turns of slack in the wheel.
In fact Stanley themselves seemed completely unaware of what the had when they produced their recent "premium" planes ; well made, good materials, but really stupid retro design with useless Norris adjusters. Madness!

The original norris adjusters are actually worse by a good bit. They change lateral adjustment when you advance them forward, they advance far too quickly, and when you tighten the lever cap, they will change setting - going deeper in cut. They do it so much that you can use the lever cap as a micro adjuster, getting the plane set closely with the adjuster and then adjusting the depth of the cut by loosening and tightening the lever cap.

I recently bought three of them, but I'm digging up planes to see what I'd like to copy. I know now to not make an infill plane with any adjuster!

In contrast, I also got a norris #2 that has no adjuster, and it's quite nice to use, but I have gotten old infills (another norris, in fact) where the fit of the iron and cap with the bed and lever cap isn't so good and it doesn't adjust well. Not terrible to correct, but a problem that no stanley will have.

There are quite a few makers who have talked about all of the shortcomings of the stanley design (emmerich is one, the US language copy about the primus adjuster planes talks about how they have solved all of the shortcomings of stanley planes, but the plane is worse than a stanley, more costly and has a horrible blade retention mechanism. The only thing it has going for it with it's pressed metal adjustment system is that it has no backlash.) Talking about how much trouble backlash is is nothing more than a beginner's trap, though. I've never actually been bothered by it in use, but I sure have been bothered by oversensitive adjusters or gritty feeling adjusters that have little to none.

 

[Jacob]

...Talking about how much trouble backlash is is nothing more than a beginner's trap, though. I've never actually been bothered by it in use, but I sure have been bothered by oversensitive adjusters or gritty feeling adjusters that have little to none.

Yes you need a bit of slack so that you can feel positively the change from push to pull. It doesn't matter at all if it means spinning the wheel a turn or more - a well used plane just need a quick flick of the wheel.
It's a useful bit of feedback - like the feel you get with a vehicle manual gear stick.

....There are quite a few makers who have talked about all of the shortcomings of the stanley design...

Well they are trying to sell their planes aren't they :lol:
A lot of forum chat used to be negative about stanley too ("thin blades made of cheese slack adjusters" moan moan!) but it seems to have eased off as reality dawns!

 

[sploo]

Looks like we'll be getting sub standard brexitoply in the near future. :roll:

It'll be strong and stable though.

Ahem :mrgreen: :?

 

[Noel]

There was a thread some years ago that went like this:

I think what does bug some folk is WIP pictures of, say a stage where a slip of wood has been planed (which certainly does not need a picture when 3 words would do- "planed the wood" etc) and we have an image of the wood with a 300 quid plane lying beside it. I'm quite sure some folk take a few minutes to just get the position right...and then we have the same picture that just so happens to have a grand or two of stuff lying on the shelf in the background....

No doubt some are proud and happy of what they have, others are simply showing off and perhaps the odd one is trying to be superior. I did once think of posting a picture of a bit of wood, some curly shavings and a wad of cash beside it..but only had a couple of thrupenny bits available...

 

[D_W]

"I just came from world of warcraft, and I want to level up starting in woodworking here, so I've spent $10,000 on tools from a more advanced user - including a shoot board that came up to $600 with all of the gadgets attached to it"

I often have expensive tools in the background, but making tools has become my interest more than making furniture. I can't imagine keeping all of them in the long term, either.

I don't have any expensive furniture.

If someone has expensive tools and uses them, I think they like expensive tools. If they have expensive tools and they're a collector, that's fine, too. If they have expensive tools, say they're not a collector and they don't use the tools (as you can tell by 10 years of making simple beginner's items sparingly), then it's strange.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

David

What would you consider "expensive tools"?

Now there's a mine field! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

625 pounds for a postwar panel smoother is expensive, I'd say, but there are people with a larger appetite for tools than that. Maybe $100+ for a chisel is expensive.

I do get a giggle out of gigantic footprint shops with heat and central dust systems where the shop owner doesn't really make much and then wants to save pennies on hand tools.

I know there are plenty who will think that more than 25 pounds for a metal plane is expensive, and that 5 would be more reasonable. My dad is in that category - if he doesn't have to spend the money, he will absolutely not spend it.

Let the mud slinging begin!

 

[Bm101]

I was working in Bristol last week and seeing as the job's a stones throw from Bristol Designs thought it would be rude not to pop in and say hello. (Would have phoned Andy but gathered you were 'away from your library' )
In the back of my mind I was wondering if they had a chariot casting left, or possibly, maybe summat a bit bigger than the smoother I got last time I was down, for 'a future project'. Oh the webs we weave for ourselves.
Turned out they don't nor will they in the future. (They do have a couple of different smoothers left but that's about it if anyone is interested.)
I'm a noob woodworker and have no business trying to cobble the odd infill plane together when I get a spare 5 minutes. I should be making spice racks by all rights but tbh I don't really care about spice racks. I didn't take much cash knowing that I'd then have to go back the next day and so armoured myself against any daft impulse purchases. Funny enough I must have turned a corner because rather than looking and thinking 'Ooooohhh' I looked and thought, 'can't use that, don't need one of them'. Who knew. Must be picking something up.
I did have a nice chat with the Owner who was very generous with his time and knowledge. Lovely fella.
We discussed quite a few things and I didn't feel totally out of my depth. I knew he had at one time sold a type of Norris adjuster and it turned out he did have one left in stock but it wouldnt fit my smoother (too short), but he was very forthright about the costs of having them made, the viability of selling castings etc in general (hence they aren't any more) and also the shortcomings of this type of adjuster as they get worn. I got a bit confused at one point when he talked about using different threads rather than opposing threads, would that solve issues?
The question I have is on a new adjuster, if it's not been in use for 60 years by various owners might you be better having one than using a wedge arrangement. I have one last unexplored option to have one made but when I get round to doing the smoother would the consensus be skip it and use a wedge.

I do the messing about with planes bit purely because I enjoy it and have no real interest the fact that a well set up Stanley etc will do the same thing in this particular case. I do, of course I do, but that's not why I like to fiddle about down ma shed, as a hobby sometimes it's the fascination and the learning curve that I enjoy. I make no apologies for that. Never made myself out to be more skilled than I am!


Be interested to hear what you think. New plane: adjuster or wedge. Answers on a postcard...

Walked away from Bristol Designs with just one tiny purchase..... O

:-"

Regards
Chris

 

[D_W]

Three types of infills that I can think of: (I've totally made these up)
1) lever cap, no adjuster
2) lever cap with adjuster
3) wedged

I haven't used a wedged infill because I've never come across a nice one for little money. Lots of old bulky castings or various very early designs, and some nice ones that are expensive.

My preference is for an infill like the older norris planes - a lever cap and no adjuster, though a decent adjuster wouldn't hurt too much. The super speedy adjuster arrangement on later norris planes (and maybe some of the earlier ones) is troublesome. If I get what you're saying correctly, it's the suggestion to have two different speed threads going in the same direction so that the movement that occurs is the difference between the outside threads on the adjuster and the inside threads to the telescoping parts. That could work pretty well. The other challenge then is lateral adjustment, which isn't that great on a norris, as well as the tendency for them to advance the iron as you tighten the lever cap.

All in all, a solid, well fitted iron on a plane with no adjuster just seems better working.

re: the wedges, I would expect anything that hasn't been used for 60 years to have some fit issues, and would consider it the first step in getting one of those planes going. If you're lucky, the fit will be good. If not, you'll be redoing it, or at worst remaking a wedge. I'd just fit the wedge if I had a good condition one that didn't quite fit right.

I'm with you on building things - the consensus on forums is often that if you're not building furniture, then you're not doing something legitimate. It's just sentiment. I would like to build some nice pieces, but not as much as I would like to build more tools, and the trouble with building a bunch of furniture pieces to get good at it (I mean like making something a lot nicer than just a piece of hand-done casework with hand cut mouldings) is that I have no need for them and nowhere to put them in the house.

Only one comment I can make, that is to find an infill plane (even if it stretches you a little to buy one) that you like and take some proportions from it. It's safer than just building from scratch without anything in hand, and you can resell that plane at the end. You guys have an advantage over there in that you can get UK only items locally for cheaper than they sell for in the states, and then let them go on ebay with global shipping turned on and probably not lose anything.

 

[DTR]

a couple of thrupenny bits...

In an argument of old tools vs new, is this a Freudian slip??

Nice knob.








Did I just say that?

 

[Bm101]

Thanks DW. I've had the castings for a while. I bought two last time I was in Bristol. The bullnose is halfway done, the smoother hasn't been started. I need to make more time to do them, they get put to one side to easily in the face of real life and the white rabbit syndrome. I think that while maybe the intricacy of the work is what I really enjoy, it's also what puts me off picking them up sometimes when I'm tired. The thought of it. Need to give myself a slap and stop thinking about loft extension and kitchen and living room floors, work, kids. etc etc etc.

I reckon you're right. Lever cap and no adjuster. That's what I did on my little block plane, though this is a different kettle of fish to be sure. Might extend the blade so it can be adjusted by tapping it, (*winks at DTR, 'That's a touch mate')

...unless of course I can come up with a Preston style rear screw thread..... No. :shock: Unleeeessss, maybe ...Nolegs might have an idea or two and if we were to approach it from the right angle...

Thanks for the advice.
Regards
Chris

 

[Bm101]

Nice knob.
Did I just say that?

It's nicely knurled and the proportions are excellent. I'll give it that.

 

[memzey]

Funnily enough I was in Bristol a couple of weeks ago and had to pop in to Bristol Design as well. Half expected to see Andy their but no joy . I also had a nice chat with the owner and concur that he is a very nice fella.

 

[Noel]

a couple of thrupenny bits...

In an argument of old tools vs new, is this a Freudian slip??

Says the bloke going on about knobs..... : )
But good comment otherwise Dave.

 

[Jacob]

[....... The problem is that you and I have neither the prominence nor the importance as woodworkers to influence a newcomer. Someone such as David Charlesworth could. Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz clearly do amongst their minions. ....

Unduly self deprecating Derek - the intelligent newcomer would do well to take more notice of people like yourself and others who are actively engaged at whatever level, but are not trying to sell anything.
The 'vendors' should be viewed with a suitable degree of scepticism at all times! Prominent maybe, but not necessarily important.