Chisel sharpening – you’re all doing it wrong!

[Jacob]

Removable interior sashes basically, taken out for summertime. They are in fact so efficient it's not worth the money to swap out for modern equivalents. Heimlaga could talk loops around me on this, he's an expert in this.

Well that'd work here and I've suggested it in the past but with no takers. Probably because of the weather - we don't get a predictable hard winter here and some years it'd hardly be worth the bother.
Internal shutters were common in the past, which I think are a good idea - cheaper than curtains in the long term and good for security and insulation.

 

[Jacob]

..... although Jacob is abrupt ....

Sorry about that (and about talking about myself) but there was a reason for being assertive:
When I first came on to forums and message boards it always seemed to me that there were numbers of would-be-gurus and over confident experts dishing out information which was often (not always) nonsense, self serving and commercial. For example if you cast your mind back a few years; the promotion of LN/LV tools, or the explosion in the sharpening gadget market.
Wouldn't matter except they attract (and exploit) a gullible fan base and they would sometimes get quite irritable when contradicted.
It struck me that I could dish out assertive and over-confident counter-nonsense of my own - and I've been doing it ever since!
Keeps me amused anyway!

 

[D_W]

These are what you'd call beginners traps. They got me, too. I didn't learn much from them, but I spent a lot.

Marking knives, dovetail markers, pre-made shooting boards, expensive and over complicated sharpening guides, gadgets that guide saws (I didn't buy most of those). Figuring out faster ways to get to the same result led me to just learn the hard way that I was duplicating the old ways.

Heard a lot of crappie about it being too hard to rip wood or dimension it with hand tools, too.

 

[D_W]

I found you a chute board, Jacob.

http://ticovogt.com/toolworks/index.php ... 7a641f41d0

A little better than 300 pounds without VAT.

I could be considered rude for poking fun at this, and I guess I am. But I'm not worried that I'll hurt the sales of this stuff by making comments - these things are cold sold at shows, and on youtube videos where people go on at length for 10 minutes about all of the aspects that make it worth 400 bucks (and you have to wait 5 weeks, according to the page, so I guess you're hamstrung for that time). They'll sell to the same people who will buy a shooting board plane for 500 bucks, and then get far into woodworking and realize that unless they're making tiny things, there's little to shoot and that a table saw stop or chop saw cutting parts simultaneously is a bit more practical---but they might wish for a miter jack if they make some mouldings to cover exposed end grain.

I haven't found many vintage heavily used shoot boards around. Even a planemaker's float is more common.

now, pardon me while I go make one for my absurd push me pull you plane - I have managed to track down two sheets of MDF at home depot to make a couple of boards. I'm sure I can find some offcuts for the fences.

 

[Jacob]

:lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all!
I fancy a "Sliding Block with Adjustable Europly Stop" I wonder what it's for?
http://ticovogt.com/toolworks/index.php ... ex&cPath=1

I.......
I haven't found many vintage heavily used shoot boards around. .....

I think that's because in the real world a shooting board is something you'd knock up in a few minutes from a few scraps, as and when needed. Job finished and it ends up on the firewood heap.
Actually I made one a bit back but haven't scrapped it yet as I have a box project in mind.

 

[John15]

.....[/quote]I think that's because in the real world a shooting board is something you'd knock up in a few minutes from a few scraps, as and when needed. Job finished and it ends up on the firewood heap.
Actually I made one a bit back but haven't scrapped it yet as I have a box project in mind.[/quote]

I don't throw mine away after one use - it goes under the bench until the next time it's needed.

John

 

[Corneel]

When I posted a "make a shootingboard in 10 minutes real time" video, I got a rather angry email from one of the boutique shooting board makers. Nuff said.

 

[D_W]

:lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all!
I fancy a "Sliding Block with Adjustable Europly Stop"

what's europly? sounds like it must be superior to ameriply.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Isn't it interesting that, as with all the other forums, 95% of the posts are about tools. Where are the posts about building furniture with said tools? Yes, I know that this forum is "Hand Tools", but even Woodworking or Projects are still about tools. And here the current topic is about the tools that beginners purchase or plan to use (one day ...). It is not really that different. How about showing some of the builds you are involved in? Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. I'd love to see what you do.

With regard the tools beginners buy, such as the Vogt shooting board (which I do roll my eyes at, but mainly because I cannot imagine paying someone to make me a jig), at the end of the day I bite my tongue at the choices buyers make, and remind myself that for most it is a hobby, not to be taken that seriously. For the more serious, take a leaf out if Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Riding ...

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

... Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. ...

Retired joiner specialising in period joinery and conservation work, with many odds and ends of furniture on the side.
These are my biggest ever, and fairly recent jobs - 10 of these (14' high!) replicated entirely new work (re-using the old glass), 6 similar single story part new/restored, door restored, etc etc.

PS correction - I re-used the curved glazing bars which were oak and came out in good nick (you can tell from the top photo), other than that it's all new work, replicating the originals in every detail.

PPS I glazed and painted them on this 'launching pad' so I could move them about and lift into place with a block and tackle

 

[Jacob]

:lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all!
I fancy a "Sliding Block with Adjustable Europly Stop"

what's europly? sounds like it must be superior to ameriply.

Looks like we'll be getting sub standard brexitoply in the near future. :roll:

 

[D_W]

Isn't it interesting that, as with all the other forums, 95% of the posts are about tools. Where are the posts about building furniture with said tools? Yes, I know that this forum is "Hand Tools", but even Woodworking or Projects are still about tools. And here the current topic is about the tools that beginners purchase or plan to use (one day ...). It is not really that different. How about showing some of the builds you are involved in? Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. I'd love to see what you do.

With regard the tools beginners buy, such as the Vogt shooting board (which I do roll my eyes at, but mainly because I cannot imagine paying someone to make me a jig), at the end of the day I bite my tongue at the choices buyers make, and remind myself that for most it is a hobby, not to be taken that seriously. For the more serious, take a leaf out if Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Riding ...

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”

Regards from Perth

Derek

At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.

David, I agree with you, but I do not know what to suggest. The problem is that you and I have neither the prominence nor the importance as woodworkers to influence a newcomer. Someone such as David Charlesworth could. Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz clearly do amongst their minions. Actually, I take that back - I offer up a build along, and someone will see the nice tools I use and imagine that my good work is due to them. And you will talk about Norris planes on forums, and the message is that they are wonderful and offer an advantage. We are all guilty of promoting the fantasy of excellence through expensive tools. We bought into this ourselves when we started out. Not knowing what was good and what to buy, we sought to emulate our heros.

The fact is that there are a lot of high quality tools around these days. Some are shiny and new and others are diamonds in the rust. Many of the followers on forums I occasionally visit just wish to belong to a club. And the very basic pieces they make satisfy their inner woodworker (I watched a guy build a simple face grain cutting board - thicknessing, glueing and cutting - using many thousands of Dollars of high end power equipment. He was very happy. Try telling him that it could all be done with a #4 Stanley).

Were you ready to be told about Stanley planes and chipbreakers 10 years ago? What if I had said to you that you did not need the hundreds of sharpening stones you went through, and just needed two? Would you have listened? :lol:

I think that there is irony in the reaction of the followers of Paul Sellers. Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options. Perhaps they will one day if they continue. Experience is earned, not taught or bought.

As I stated earlier, I do not have an answer. I find some the comments here and elsewhere bordering on the religiose. Intolerance (snide comments) turns me off. My preference is to discuss pros and cons, method of use, and illustrate these when possible. There is not enough of this, I feel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

...... Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options....

Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.
Conversely I know from many conversations that having the "best" kit can be a big disappointment and discouragement to a beginner as it almost certainly will not improve their woodwork at all and could put them right off. The difference in use between a well set up cheap plane and a top of the range, is very, very, tiny.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.

Jacob, so a #7 jointer and a #5 jack are a waste of time?

An enquiring mind is a creative mind.

My comments above were not an argument for expensive planes or tools. I was drawing attention to the difficulty in exposing new woodworkers to a broad range of ideas.

Jacob, sometimes I wonder if you would argue the point if I agreed with you?! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

Jacob, sometimes I wonder if you would argue the point if I agreed with you?! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

It struck me that I could dish out assertive and over-confident counter-nonsense of my own - and I've been doing it ever since!
Keeps me amused anyway!

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.

Jacob, so a #7 jointer and a #5 jack are a waste of time? ...
....

Not something I've ever said. Mind you if you had both I'd say a 6 was a waste of time! If you had just one I'd say 5 1/2. If you could only afford the cheapest I'd say 4

 

[iNewbie]

...... Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options....

Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.
Conversely I know from many conversations that having the "best" kit can be a big disappointment and discouragement to a beginner as it almost certainly will not improve their woodwork at all and could put them right off. The difference in use between a well set up cheap plane and a top of the range, is very, very, tiny.

I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...

 

[Jacob]

...... Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options....

Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.
Conversely I know from many conversations that having the "best" kit can be a big disappointment and discouragement to a beginner as it almost certainly will not improve their woodwork at all and could put them right off. The difference in use between a well set up cheap plane and a top of the range, is very, very, tiny.

I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...

Fair enough.
But you are covered if you buy new from almost anyone. I bought a Faithful 10 from Amazon on the off chance, but it was beyond all hope and completely useless, so money back pronto no prob. Cheap new planes are dubious but cheap second hand can be excellent.
On the other hand cheap new chisels are usually OK. They may look a bit crude and chunky but 99% of the time they are perfectly usable and good for beginners.

 

[D_W]

I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...

Or you could literally buy 10 records in the UK and keep the best one and then resell the other 9.

That would take some time, though, but I doubt you'd get to 10 before you found a really good one that didn't need much. One of my best working planes is a war-time 6 (stanley) that I found here in the states nearly unused for $25. Stanley planes don't always show up particularly flat once they're old, but this one did, and the adjuster is a treat.