Chisel and Plane Blade Honing Guide Angle Jigs with measurements; Veritas, Marples, and Eclipse.

[Eshmiel]

Here's a well known enthusiast.
https://brentbeach.ca/Sharpen/jigarch.html#myjig1

Ah, the wonderful Brent - I gobbled up his wisdom with glee and smacked me mental lips. His methods might be rather over the top but his descriptions and explanations of what happens to edges and how they can be (re)perfected offers a lot of insight. Even if you sharpen by hand, it's best to be aware of the geometry of the edge and its backing (what supports the edge); and of the need to deal somehow with both wear bevels, not just that/those on one side of the blade.

Here's another interesting fellow, from the European traditions:

https://www.fine-tools.com/pdf/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.pdf

Only 63 pages.

 

[mudman]

T'other way around - people seek patents for things newly invented, in the hopes that they can cash in before anybody else.
They were about much earlier than 1937 if you look at B Beaches site

If they have perhaps invented an electric light bulb or a thing to talk at distances. A lot of the time, people see what others are doing, formalise it as a design and then patent it so they can make money from it.
Like I said, my search was a cursory look but I do expect that there were a lot earlier ones, both patented and not. It is interesting that you accept that they have been around for a long time.

Nothing "horrible" about them

That's definitely not the impression you give.

but they don't seem to feature much in tool history, collections.

So what? Who cares? It isn't proof that they are bad things that should be sealed in a sack with a lot of cats and dogs and hurled into the sea.

R. L. Keith is typical, I bet he hardly sold any at all and there are zero examples in existence. Come to think, it looks like an appalling design, even worse than the Veritas Mk2!
Typical - a long history of clumsy designs made to solve an imaginary problem.

Only in your opinion that has been formed based on nothing other than inherent bias and prejudice. It wouldn't be unusual for patented inventions to never be successful, but it shows they were being thought about.

 

[Eshmiel]

Typical - a long history of clumsy designs made to solve an imaginary problem.

Alas, problems not imaginary to many novice and amateur woodworkers, including me for a significant while before use of a jig (a fettled eclipse) allowed me to experience the joys of a truly sharp edge.

It may be just a preferred habit to continue with the jig. I suppose I could spend 10% of my remaining time on Earth learning how to reduce multi-facets on me bevel as I rub a chisel up and down by hand. But I have other things to learn, of a much greater interest, such as how to please the latest collie-rescue with all sorts of requirements she has. Also, I have taken up bowling, just to meet the extensive range of characters one finds when their average age is 94.

Being a cack-hand is also sometimes just a habit. But for some its a genetic condition. Let us have our jigs!

 

[Jacob]

.......
Like I said, my search was a cursory look but I do expect that there were a lot earlier ones, both patented and not.

There were. Brent Beach shows a few, as I've already mentioned

It is interesting that you accept that they have been around for a long time.

Why would I not accept such a simple fact?

That's definitely not the impression you give.

No it's the impression you've imagined.
I can hardly deny that they existed, why would I, I've owned several myself!

.....

Only in your opinion that has been formed based on nothing other than inherent bias and prejudice.

Nope. Based on practical experience, many years of use and enquiry. I feel that I do actually know what I'm talking about here.

It wouldn't be unusual for patented inventions to never be successful, but it shows they were being thought about.

They've probably been thought about since the stone age and no doubt often used, especially by makers within the industry. But we are talking about typical woodworkers servicing tools in use, not tool makers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...CDgwNTJqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[mudman]

There were. Brent Beach shows a few, as I've already mentioned

Why would I not accept such a simple fact?

No it's the impression you've imagined.
I can hardly deny that they existed, why would I, I've owned several myself!

Nope. Based on practical experience, many years of use and enquiry. I feel that I do actually know what I'm talking about here.

They've probably been thought about since the stone age and no doubt often used, especially by makers within the industry. But we are talking about typical woodworkers servicing tools in use, not tool makers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...CDgwNTJqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But you've frequently banged on about them being a modern thing, happening in the 80s.
I never said you denied their existence. Why would I?
I feel that you think you know what you are talking about. How extensive is your practical experience of honing guides? I suspect it runs to just the single wheeled Stanley with the arm that you like to show a picture of, or is it only the simple eclipse type? I suspect it is only the latter and you've never tried any of the others having given up on them early on. Fair enough, you are quite entitled to do so, but the point here is that you really don't need to bang on about it in any thread vaguely related to getting an edge. It's tedious.
So, I expect you'll come back again with more pointless arguments but you can have the last word, I don't care enough to answer you.

 

[BentonTool]

Jigs have been around for years but not widely used - just for a few amateurs and the "gentleman woodworker" etc. There was a huge explosion of interest in the 1980s I reckon. It passed me by, until I started following internet stuff and I realised it had all changed.
Here's a well known enthusiast.
https://brentbeach.ca/Sharpen/jigarch.html#myjig1
Those early ones are interesting but I bet there are very few in existence, they weren't widely used, unlike the tools themselves of that era, which are extremely common.

Very interesting review... thanks...

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Sharpening threads are almost always contentious. I can't really fathom out what you hope to gain by participating in them so vociferously and extensively, Jacob. In a sense, I'm a bit like you in that I don't use jigs to sharpen woodworking tools. I've never needed to use a jig or a guide for the job, and when I demonstrate sharpening to learners I just show them the way I do it, but I also tell them there are jigs and guides out there for if they really can't get the knack of freehanding the job.

In truth, it's no skin off my nose if someone can only sharpen with the aid of a guide or jig. It would only be a concern to me if I employed woodworkers in my woodworking business and their sharpening methodology was time consuming to the point of affecting profitability. So, apart from that sort of scenario, it's just as easy to let people get on with sharpening any way they feel like, in my opinion.

Like you, I find all these jigs and guides way too much faff and fiddle for me to bother my a+se with. I only know that because I've tried a few that learners have brought to me for my comments and opinion which, so far, has always been negative from a personal perspective, i.e., they're no blo++y use to me. But I also recognise that not everyone is like me and they can only really sharpen with a jig. So, for the most part I just say let them get on with it even though I've got my own Lesson in Sharpening tale out there of sharpening using the KISS principle.

I seldom get involved in sharpening threads, my contribution here being an exception, because of how unpleasant they can get. I don't really know why you can't do the same, and generally let people get on with it. Yes, I know how you like to wang on ... and on ... and on about modern sharpening madness, and all that, but really, we already know what you think through years of repetition, and you surely have an ignore facility built into your nature somewhere.

By the way, I can promise that this is my only contribution to this thread no matter what provocations may be thrown my way after I post this lot, which is too much verbiage in reality now that I think about it. Slainte.

 

[BentonTool]

Ah, the wonderful Brent - I gobbled up his wisdom with glee and smacked me mental lips. His methods might be rather over the top but his descriptions and explanations of what happens to edges and how they can be (re)perfected offers a lot of insight. Even if you sharpen by hand, it's best to be aware of the geometry of the edge and its backing (what supports the edge); and of the need to deal somehow with both wear bevels, not just that/those on one side of the blade.

Here's another interesting fellow, from the European traditions:

https://www.fine-tools.com/pdf/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.pdf

Only 63 pages.

Outstanding review of sharpening! Thank you very much...

 

[Jacob]

Ah, the wonderful Brent - I gobbled up his wisdom with glee and smacked me mental lips. His methods might be rather over the top but his descriptions and explanations of what happens to edges and how they can be (re)perfected offers a lot of insight. Even if you sharpen by hand, it's best to be aware of the geometry of the edge and its backing (what supports the edge); and of the need to deal somehow with both wear bevels, not just that/those on one side of the blade.

No - much better to ignore and forget the jargon and the long-winded pseudo science.

Here's another interesting fellow, from the European traditions:

https://www.fine-tools.com/pdf/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.pdf

Only 63 pages.

I see both of them as major proponents of modern sharpening and as such to be avoided like the plague - literally! It's highly infectious, they completely befuddle the whole topic and have bewildered a whole generation of woodworkers!
There are others but I won't mention them, it'll just bring them out of the woodwork!
It's like being expected to read 63 pages on how to blow your nose!

 

[Eshmiel]

Sharpening threads are almost always contentious. I can't really fathom out what you hope to gain by participating in them so vociferously and extensively, Jacob. In a sense, I'm a bit like you in that I don't use jigs to sharpen woodworking tools. I've never needed to use a jig or a guide for the job, and when I demonstrate sharpening to learners I just show them the way I do it, but I also tell them there are jigs and guides out there for if they really can't get the knack of freehanding the job.

In truth, it's no skin off my nose if someone can only sharpen with the aid of a guide or jig. It would only be a concern to me if I employed woodworkers in my woodworking business and their sharpening methodology was time consuming to the point of affecting profitability. So, apart from that sort of scenario, it's just as easy to let people get on with sharpening any way they feel like, in my opinion.

Like you, I find all these jigs and guides way too much faff and fiddle for me to bother my a+se with. I only know that because I've tried a few that learners have brought to me for my comments and opinion which, so far, has always been negative from a personal perspective, i.e., they're no blo++y use to me. But I also recognise that not everyone is like me and they can only really sharpen with a jig. So, for the most part I just say let them get on with it even though I've got my own Lesson in Sharpening tale out there of sharpening using the KISS principle.

I seldom get involved in sharpening threads, my contribution here being an exception, because of how unpleasant they can get. I don't really know why you can't do the same, and generally let people get on with it. Yes, I know how you like to wang on ... and on ... and on about modern sharpening madness, and all that, but really, we already know what you think through years of repetition, and you surely have an ignore facility built into your nature somewhere.

By the way, I can promise that this is my only contribution to this thread no matter what provocations may be thrown my way after I post this lot, which is too much verbiage in reality now that I think about it. Slainte.

Please don't discourage Jacob, who makes this forum worth a visit all by hisself.

As to any "unpleasant" - it's interesting to note who is inclined to be a Duchess of Pout. A pout and a flounce speaks volumes, see? As does a hit & run.

 

[Eshmiel]

No - much better to ignore and forget the jargon and the long-winded pseudo science.

I see both of them as major proponents of modern sharpening and as such to be avoided like the plague - literally! It's highly infectious, they completely befuddle the whole topic and have bewildered a whole generation of woodworkers!
There are others but I won't mention them, it'll just bring them out of the woodwork!
It's like being expected to read 63 pages on how to blow your nose!

I demand that you name, describe and supply the urls of them "others" you mention. The winter evenings are still long and I love to learn, even if it all turns out to be daft as a brush. (After all, I spent many years in academic institutions as a child and had a great time, despite the stuff they taught us about "history", not to mention a physics and chemistry that was out of date by several decades). Sometimes what's learnt is very useful, even to me, a cack-handed dafty that can't shut up. ...... ....... ................ Have I found a cybermirror!? Gaw.

Go on, go on, go on - you know you want to.

 

[Jacob]

I demand that you name, describe and supply the urls of them "others" you mention. The winter evenings are still long and I love to learn, even if it all turns out to be daft as a brush. (After all, I spent many years in academic institutions as a child and had a great time, despite the stuff they taught us about "history", not to mention a physics and chemistry that was out of date by several decades). Sometimes what's learnt is very useful, even to me, a cack-handed dafty that can't shut up. ...... ....... ................ Have I found a cybermirror!? Gaw.

Go on, go on, go on - you know you want to.

No sorry I won't! Youtube and magazines are full of the stuff, from about 1980 onwards I guess. You will find hardly any of it in earlier books and mags, going back to the stone age.
It really is an odd phenomenon.
Something like it crops up in other areas such as sport and fitness - you could read pages and pages of rambling and repetitive articles newly churned out every week, if you really wanted to.

 

[Eshmiel]

- you could read pages and pages of rambling and repetitive articles newly churned out every week, if you really wanted to.

I do do. Yes I do.

With the brainbox it's use it or lose it; or let it ossify to a condition in which any new notions just bounce off, no matter how useful they might be.

This does mean that dodgy daft dogmas and other nonsense can get in. One must develop a highly sensitive sceptical organ inclusive of a daft-stuff ejector. Best not to let that ossify too, though, into a cynicism bung, eh? One might become stuck in 1937 or unable to understand new woodworking tools.