Cheap, Hard Point Rip Tenon Saws?

[GazPal]

Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.

I've got an Irwin tenon saw I've been hanging onto for ages. It's blunt-ish, but I'm wondering if I can temper the teeth and sharpen it.

More to the point, the reason I haven't thrown it out is that Toolstation stopped selling them. They must have been crazy. I've since tried Bahco (too lightweight) and Predator (simply dreadful), but the size and weight of the Irwin one was just spot on for me.

Do you get yours from a local supplier, or someone who does mail order? Even with postage it's worth it for general use. For fine work I have S+J brass-backed...

E.

Hi E,

I've been getting mine via mail order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370683871931? ... 1438.l2649 , but used to nip into town for them as a local tool shop had them in stock for a good while.

If anything, rather than try adjusting the heat treatment on your Irwin (Jack?) tenon saw, I'd consider jointing the teeth and re-tooth it from fresh. Possibly too much bother, but the saw plate is already tensioned and made from good steel.

My personal preferences for saws are S&J (Typically either Professional or 88's), Tyzack (Nonpareil) and Disston (D8's). I've also a few C 19th saws by S&J and Disston and they're very decent users too, although I do prefer S&J's jubilee saw.

 

[GazPal]

Tempering could be fun. I wonder if there would be any mileage in cutting the hard bit off and forming new teeth?
xy

The unfortunate downside to drawing temper any further would be the subsequent need to re-harden to precisely the right level and re-temper so the resulting hardness holds a resilient edge without being brittle.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I was thinking about leaving it fairly soft, so it worked as an ordinary, not hardened, set of teeth. Silly idea probably. My only experience is re-tempering chisels, which worked all right but they're much easer to heat than a line of teeth on the edge of a saw with a plastic handle!

It's a shame really as they do cut nicely (when they're new). I'll investigate eBay.

E.

(later... Ouch, that's costly for a 'disposable' saw...

later still... Ah, they have the one I've got at £15 incl. - better!)

 

[J_SAMa]

What about this one? Looks pretty clean at least.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-14-Bra ... 0760629346
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?

I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
Sam

 

[Aled Dafis]

And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?

I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
Sam

I can't see how it would be "flush cutting" unless it has no set, in which case, it's probably useless at everything else it's meant to do...

My rule of thumb with older "proper" tenon saws (given that the saw plate is in good nick) is to look for a comfy looking handle and a nicely made brass back, If the maker has taken the time to get these right, the chances are that it's a good saw.

 

[GazPal]

What about this one? Looks pretty clean at least.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-14-Bra ... 0760629346
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?

I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
Sam

That would be a good choice and could well be an example from Tyzack's "Nonpareil" line up. The S&J you considered earlier appeared to have problems with it's brass back and it normally follows that it would also have a kink or two in it's saw plate.

------------

The all rounders I use are S&J "Predator" and Irwin "Jack" tenon saws, but you can't really go too far wrong if you stick with well known makers.

 

[GazPal]

And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?

I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
Sam

I can't see how it would be "flush cutting" unless it has no set, in which case, it's probably useless at everything else it's meant to do...

My rule of thumb with older "proper" tenon saws (given that the saw plate is in good nick) is to look for a comfy looking handle and a nicely made brass back, If the maker has taken the time to get these right, the chances are that it's a good saw.

Quite a few well made saws came with zero set and lack of set normally lends itself to improved performance in harder timbers.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I think I mentioned that I really, really don't get on with the S+J Predator tenon saws - too short, too lightweight and badly balanced.

Axminster don't seem to stock the Irwin Jack ones that I like. Irwins are 12" and 14" at 12 TPI, which is good enough for most things. I can't understand why the naff ones are easy to find whereas the better ones aren't.

Oddly, I've also got a couple of really old own-brand Screwfix ones (from before they were bought out), which I was given. They're surprisingly good, although shorter and lighter than the Irwin ones.

E.

 

[GazPal]

I was thinking about leaving it fairly soft, so it worked as an ordinary, not hardened, set of teeth. Silly idea probably. My only experience is re-tempering chisels, which worked all right but they're much easer to heat than a line of teeth on the edge of a saw with a plastic handle!

It's a shame really as they do cut nicely (when they're new). I'll investigate eBay.

E.

(later... Ouch, that's costly for a 'disposable' saw...

later still... Ah, they have the one I've got at £15 incl. - better!)

You can always de-tooth the saw plate and re-tooth to the same ppi and set or alter ppi and go for rip instead of cross-cut.

The beauty with those Irwin Jack tenon saws is they cut nicely and have a good thin saw plate/minimal kerf. If memory serves me right, I think they're also available also in 10" and 12" lengths.

I used to find myself roped into re-hardening and tempering a lot of chisels when I was a kid, as my dad was a stonemason and used to pay me ten bob to work on a selection of his chisels each weekend.

Sometimes S&J Predator saws feel too aggressively set (Hard starters in the cut), but I pass them across to my son to use for a day or two and they soon calm down after a few crosscuts, etc.. I couldn't agree more regarding their being too short if ripping. In comparison to my everyday saws (S&J 88's) there's no comparison in terms of balance and general feel during use.

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi Gary,
Is this the predator saw you were talking about? It's good for ripping tenon cheeks right?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B001E19U8W
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone had any experience with Bahco's "superior" tenon saws or Stanley's FatMax? How do they rip?
I looked for Irwin Jack tenon saws, no luck...
Sam

 

[carlb40]

Irwin tenon saws here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Hand-Tools-/4 ... +tenon+saw

If i get chance this week, i will pop into the shop by me called - toolman
http://www.toolmanyardley.co.uk/

They are the cheapest by far for saws, it is where i get mine from. I can look and see if they do the predator 1st fix saws? I know they sell the predator saws and normally they have some stock of the irwin tenon saws. However it is normally pot luck as to whether the 250mm or 300mm is stocked.

 

[GazPal]

Hi Gary,
Is this the predator saw you were talking about? It's good for ripping tenon cheeks right?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B001E19U8W
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone had any experience with Bahco's "superior" tenon saws or Stanley's FatMax? How do they rip?
I looked for Irwin Jack tenon saws, no luck...
Sam

Hi Sam,

Yes, that's the one and I definitely find their first fix saws tend to perform very well on large tenon and general ripping work. For smaller tenon work I'd definitely use tenon saw. A larger tooth count tends to improve how they perform when ripping soft and hard woods. A good professional quality rip saw will tend to have something like 6-7 ppi and less set for hardwoods and between 4-6ppi and heavier set for softwoods.

Bahco definitely make good saws and bought out Sandvik (If memory serves), but I can't speak for their two part saws - of which their Superior range is a sample.

I've no experience of Stanley's FatMax range.

Irwin Jack tenon saw http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370683871931? ... 1438.l2649

 

[Eric The Viking]

Anyone had any experience with Bahco's "superior" tenon saws or Stanley's FatMax? How do they rip? I looked for Irwin Jack tenon saws, no luck...
Sam

Bahco - OK but lightweight (you might fold something like lead sheet over the back to help this). Mine is tolerable
Predator (TENON) saw: too short, too lightweight, as Gary says, too aggressive.
Irwin Jack tenon saw - just right (for me!).

Hope that makes sense now.

E.

 

[J_SAMa]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000 ... ROKL5A1OLE
Well, look what I just found... Surprisingly enough, Bahco still makes a traditional, sharpenable saw. Doesn't come with a wooden handle or anything, but is a good saw to learn my sharpening on...

 

[Jelly]

I've found Bahco's Prof-cut saws to be very good quality, I have one of their gent's saws and a couple of 24" saws which are ostensibly to save the nice ones from nasty work... but in practice they're almost as good, perhaps a little more aggressive than I like to file my saws.

 

[Jacob]

Draper super cut are good for cross cutting (stay sharp for a very long time) but don't seem to rip at all well. I think the Jap pattern teeth clog up too easily, something more open is better - hence the 4 to 6 tpi on a trad rip saw.

 

[Jelly]

something more open is better - hence the 4 to 6 tpi on a trad rip saw.

One of my saws is filed at 2.25 tpi with a slight positive rake, the big gullet makes it effective even on deep resawing (like 10" deep purpleheart) but it's such a 'blunt instument'* that for accurate work it can be neccessary to create a straight kerf for it to run in with a finer saw first.

*Figuratively...

 

[GazPal]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001IX8MI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
Well, look what I just found... Surprisingly enough, Bahco still makes a traditional, sharpenable saw. Doesn't come with a wooden handle or anything, but is a good saw to learn my sharpening on...

It may be a traditionally re-sharpenable saw, but it isn't taper ground or handled in the same manner.

The asking price is almost halfway toward that of a reasonable new professional quality saw. I'd rather recommend you buy a second hand S&J 88/Professional as it will have the added advantage in it's taper ground blade. They're also very often less than £15 on evilbay and in virtually pristine condition. The reason they're so inexpensive is the fact they're often overlooked in favour of saws by Disston, in spite of being IMHO equal in blade quality.