Cheap, Hard Point Rip Tenon Saws?

[J_SAMa]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.

I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.

I've been splitting and paring all my tenons, it works OK, but some grains just don't pare well, and it's always nice to have two options, just in case.

Sam

 

[carlb40]

Not sure on a rip cut hard point saw. I think most are designed for cross cut. However sharpening a rip cut hand saw from what i have seen/read is the easiest of them all. As it filed at 90 degrees to the saw with or without any slight angle to it.

 

[GazPal]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.

I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.

I've been splitting and paring all my tenons, it works OK, but some grains just don't pare well, and it's always nice to have two options, just in case.

Sam

Which S&J hand saw did you buy? Universal teeth can normally handle rip cutting such as tenon work.

Chopping and paring are the easiest option when cutting tenons, unless the grain runs in all directions. I often use my half hatchet to chop larger tenons, before finishing them with a chisel.

Can you sharpen saws yet? If not, it's a skill well worth learning and one you'll need if you need a rip filed tenon saw, but have a tight/restrictive budget, although you'll need a saw file (4", 5" or 6" extra slim for tenon saws) and 8" mill file for your sharpening. Hardpoints can be re-sharpened, but with variable results and can tend to knock **** out of standard saw files. Diamond triangular needle files work on hardpoint teeth.

 

[Aled Dafis]

I don't think that I've ever come across a hard point tenon (or any other for that matter) in a rip tooth configuration.

It's a sad state of affairs, but unfortunately, your only options are

1. Buy a new "proper" saw in a rip cut configuration - Expensive but easy
This is the cheapest option I can think of, but i may be wrong http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Atkinson_Walker_168_Tenon_Saw_12_inch_13tpi_Rip_Cut.html

2. Buy an old tennon saw and learn to sharpen it in a rip configuration - Cheap but more work (also more rewarding)
Here's a pretty good PDF document on sharpening, http://www.workshopheaven.com/library/Workshop-Heaven-Saw-Sharpening-Instructions.pdf Workshop Heaven also have a few good Youtube videos on sharpening

3. Buy a japanese saw in a rip configuration
This is a good place to start, but as always there are many options out there http://www.woodworkprojects.co.uk/index.htm#!/~/category/id=556702&offset=0&sort=normal

Cheers
Aled

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.

I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.

I've been splitting and paring all my tenons, it works OK, but some grains just don't pare well, and it's always nice to have two options, just in case.

Sam

Which S&J hand saw did you buy? Universal teeth can normally handle rip cutting such as tenon work.

Chopping and paring are the easiest option when cutting tenons, unless the grain runs in all directions. I often use my half hatchet to chop larger tenons, before finishing them with a chisel.

Can you sharpen saws yet? If not, it's a skill well worth learning and one you'll need if you need a rip filed tenon saw, but have a tight/restrictive budget, although you'll need a saw file (4", 5" or 6" extra slim for tenon saws) and 8" mill file for your sharpening. Hardpoints can be re-sharpened, but with variable results and can tend to knock **** out of standard saw files. Diamond triangular needle files work on hardpoint teeth.

Hi Gary,
It's this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002TYZMKS
I think I've read that some of the Irwin Jack saws are truly "universal". But I don't want to take the risk only to find out that it's not.
Is saw sharpening easy to learn? I mean, is it possible to destroy the saw? Also what would I need that mill file for?
Sam

 

[carlb40]

Have a look through these vidoe's

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Sha ... video.html

 

[Aled Dafis]

Saw sharpening is pretty easy to learn, but beware that sharpening is only really possible on traditional saws. Your "hardpoint" saw will have it's teeth impulse hardened to such a level of hardness that it will probably damage the file, rather than the file cut the saw.

I once tried to file the edge of a laser cut piece of tool steel not realising that the laser cutting process had hardened the edge to such an extent that it took the teeth right off a brand new 14" turnip file in a matter of a couple of strokes!

Aled

 

[Jacob]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ).

By 'apparently' do you mean you have tried it or are you just going by what you've read? Should be able to rip if it's any good and not too many tpi.
Similarly a rip filed saw will cross cut (if it has enough tpi). Some people prefer to use rip for everything. They aren't that different until you come to major ripping exercises like splitting a board through the thickness)

....
I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts?

Non as such, but a general purpose saw should rip OK

 

[GazPal]

Hi Gary,
It's this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002TYZMKS
I think I've read that some of the Irwin Jack saws are truly "universal". But I don't want to take the risk only to find out that it's not.
Is saw sharpening easy to learn? I mean, is it possible to destroy the saw? Also what would I need that mill file for?
Sam

I own and use a selection of S&J Predator handsaws for outdoor use and have no complaints in terms of cutting ability when cross cutting and ripping, but do tend to prefer their 7 ppi "First Fix" saw for larger tenon work. Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.

Saw sharpening is surprisingly easy to learn, but it's a case of taking your time while concentrating on what you're doing. While easy to sharpen, it's also just as easy to ruin a saw if you're not careful, but most mistakes are readily remedied.

A mill file is used when topping/jointing the toothline (Effectively bring the tips of the teeth to an even straight or breasted plain) prior to shaping and sharpening the teeth.

 

[Dangermouse]

A point to remember is that a non hard point saw, a vintage or a good modern one is a saw for life, the hard point are, use, get blunt, through away. I'd use one on site, but I'd never use one in the workshop. The joy of learning how to joint and sharpen and then doing it, is wonderful and a part of woodworking, just like sharping a chisel or plane blade. Would anyone here still use the Stanley no RB10 just because it comes with replaceable blades and they are afraid to try sharpening a plane blade ? That's what woodwork and cabinet making is all about, the challenge of learning and doing.

 

[GazPal]

A point to remember is that a non hard point saw, a vintage or a good modern one is a saw for life, the hard point are, use, get blunt, through away. I'd use one on site, but I'd never use one in the workshop. The joy of learning how to joint and sharpen and then doing it, is wonderful and a part of woodworking, just like sharping a chisel or plane blade. Would anyone here still use the Stanley no RB10 just because it comes with replaceable blades and they are afraid to try sharpening a plane blade ? That's what woodwork and cabinet making is all about, the challenge of learning and doing.

Agreed 500%, although I've never used an RB10.

I think hardpoint saws have their place and work extremely well in comparison to when they first came into play when they were prone to jamming and shedding teeth if you sneezed in their direction. I still own and use my first saws and couldn't agree more when it boils down to investing in ones with good taper ground blades. Saw teeth are extremely easy to touch up during use and a good saw plate can take one heck of a lot of re-sharpening throughout it's lifetime. More so if you take care and use a light touch with the file.

Investing in a decent saw slip and/or tooth guard tends to heavily influence edge life. 3in1 keeps the rust at bay.

 

[bugbear]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.

I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.

I've been splitting and paring all my tenons, it works OK, but some grains just don't pare well, and it's always nice to have two options, just in case.

Sam

A dedicated rip cutting tenon is a refined creature of old textbooks, recommended pretty much as a dedicated tenon cheek cutter.

In the modern era, a hardpoint saw is a jack of all trades.

Your saw will make rip and cross cuts - just not quite as well as a more specialised saw.

If you want a "perfect tool" (they're very nice )you'll not find it in cheap hardpoints.

If you want to saw tenon cheeks - your saw will do.

BugBear

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ).

By 'apparently' do you mean you have tried it or are you just going by what you've read? Should be able to rip if it's any good and not too many tpi.
Similarly a rip filed saw will cross cut (if it has enough tpi). Some people prefer to use rip for everything. They aren't that different until you come to major ripping exercises like splitting a board through the thickness)

....
I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts?

Non as such, but a general purpose saw should rip OK

Hi Jacob,
I've tried it. It sort of cuts, but very slowly. It's 10 tpi and cuts about 20 mm deep in 18 mm material in 30 strokes... Whereas my 14 tpi dovetail saw does the same in 9 strokes. Now imagine using that saw for 80 mm wide, 90 mm long tenons...

Actually I just found this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
Seller says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?

Sam

 

[Jacob]

Yes it's no good then! Not sure which (new) one to recommend but it is out there somewhere.
But if you are intending to hand saw a lot of tenons just buy an old tenon saw with fewer than say 10 tpi and sharpen it as a rip saw. Quite easy and a good investment in skill building.

 

[Richard T]

I may be missing something Sam but I can't see that saw on ebay being described as having been sharpened as rip. ??

 

[bugbear]

Actually I just found this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
Buyer says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?

Sam

A long as it's a good price. Leap frog was their cheap line (but all things are relative)

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=42574

Edit; you know what? I think their branding usage changed. I've just been having a bit of a google, and later saws (say 1920-1950) with the "leap frog" name show each and every indicator I look for in a top quality saw.

BugBear

 

[pedder]

[
Edit; you know what? I think their branding usage changed. I've just been having a bit of a google, and later saws (say 1920-1950) with the "leap frog" name show each and every indicator I look for in a top quality saw.

S&J are the most underrated saws IMHO. And I take leap frog as a quality mark. The later saws went downhill, but most leap frog saws available are nice! (HEAVY Spines)

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

Actually I just found this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
Buyer says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?

Sam

Looks like expensive junk to me with that bent back.*
But S&J generally excellent Plenty of alternatives out there.
This looks good.
Or if you are going to sharpen yourself just get something cheap, perhaps steel back instead of brass.
Some interesting junk here- perfect for sharpening practice (and as usable tools)

PS perhaps it's just the photo in which case it could be good.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.

I've got an Irwin tenon saw I've been hanging onto for ages. It's blunt-ish, but I'm wondering if I can temper the teeth and sharpen it.

More to the point, the reason I haven't thrown it out is that Toolstation stopped selling them. They must have been crazy. I've since tried Bahco (too lightweight) and Predator (simply dreadful), but the size and weight of the Irwin one was just spot on for me.

Do you get yours from a local supplier, or someone who does mail order? Even with postage it's worth it for general use. For fine work I have S+J brass-backed...

E.

 

[xy mosian]

Tempering could be fun. I wonder if there would be any mileage in cutting the hard bit off and forming new teeth?
xy