Cheap beginners gouge sets

[RickG]

Assuming Stepaside is the one in Pembrokeshire, there's an AWGB club in Pembroke. You'd do well to meet there and ask for help sharpening and get all the gouges given an edge. You can then freshen them up by hand with an oil stone. I use an oil stone, and I have a grinder and water stones.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Alas, it's the one in Ireland. There's a woodturning guild setup here though, so I can use those if the current course isn't enough, but I'd like to be able to get started before it ends (which is the end of March).

 

[That would work]

I'm not saying I'm going to try to ruin them or that they'll be the only tools I'll ever own, I'm saying that in learning to do all this (including learning to hand-sharpen), I fully expect not to get it right on the first try despite giving it best efforts. So I'm not thinking to buy a set of all PM HSS tools, the same way you wouldn't think to buy a *new* Rolls for junior's first driving lesson, but to have Jeeves get him a second-hand Rolls instead (oh, the hardship of it all).

You cannot permanently spoil HSS tools by sharpening them badly in the early stages. Why buy twice?
Carbon steel turning tools are not the nicest/easiest things to use (sharpening them is harder as they need to be oil stoned and they blunt much much quicker), they could end up putting you off so why bother with them?

 

[ED65]

Mark, thought about DoneDeal or Adverts or FB?

Not sure if you'd have wanted them but you just missed a €35 set of Rolsons on Adverts. Yes they're by Rolson, which is arguably lower down the food chain than Silverline, but if they are the HSS they're advertised to be they might have been acceptable.

 

[Robbo3]

Carbon steel turning tools are not the nicest/easiest things to use (sharpening them is harder as they need to be oil stoned and they blunt much much quicker), they could end up putting you off so why bother with them?

I've never 'oil stoned' carbon steel tools although I occasionally use a diamond slip stone to save a trip to the grinder.
One reason I can think of for doing so is to prevent overheating the metal. Once the edge turns blue it has to be ground back past the blue without over heating it again, so gently, gently & frequent dips in cold water.
If you are honing the edge
a) It's not going to last very long
b) The flat produced by the stone will have to be removed at some stage by grinding, so it's back to gently, gently & frequent dips in cold water.
Like everything, you improve with practice.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Also do NOT quench HSS.

 

[RickG]

...
One reason I can think of for doing so is to prevent overheating the metal. Once the edge turns blue it has to be ground back past the blue without over heating it again, so gently, gently & frequent dips in cold water.
If you are honing the edge
a) It's not going to last very long
b) The flat produced by the stone will have to be removed at some stage by grinding, so it's back to gently, gently & frequent dips in cold water.
Like everything, you improve with practice.

I'm new to this turning and sharpening lark. I do occasionally overheat the fine side tips of small bowl gouges. What I tend to do is use them as they are and simply try to do better next time. Is this wrong?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No. The edge will just be slightly quicker to blunt. Sharpen to stop things getting blunt, cool to stop things getting hot. Don't wait until the harm is done. I confess to cooling HSS if it's a major reshape - but I use cooling to stop it getting hot in the first place, not to quench it when I can't hold it any more or when it blues. Theoretically that of course is probably wrong.

 

[J-G]

Also do NOT quench HSS.

From your second post on this matter Phil, I take it you mean 'Don't let HSS tools get so hot that dunking them in water will effectively "Quench" them'.

The bald statement 'do NOT quench HSS' could give the impression that HSS tooling should not be cooled with water (or oil for that matter) whereas I'm sure that you really know that the important thing is to not let the tool get too hot - and certainly not anything like 'blue' never mind even 'straw'.

When sharpening any tool there should never be any suggestion of a colour change in the steel but using water to keep that the case is perfectly legitimate.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Of course you shouldn't let the tool get too hot - but if it's HSS don't quench it when it does.

 

[ED65]

I do occasionally overheat the fine side tips of small bowl gouges. What I tend to do is use them as they are and simply try to do better next time. Is this wrong?

Not at all.

Advise is fairly consistent that if you blue an edge – of a carbon steel chisel or iron, makes no difference to HSS – that you need to grind back until it's gone. But a few more sensible/rational/sagacious (pick an adjective) guys instead suggest just using the tool as-is and living with the fact that it just blunts more quickly. Eventually through normal honing you'll get back to steel that's fully hard, and the more frequent touchups will have provided additional sharpening practice.

 

[ED65]

Of course you shouldn't let the tool get too hot - but if it's HSS don't quench it when it does.

But what is the temp at which this becomes a problem? Obviously not overheating in the first place is the ideal, but if you do get something too hot there's a fair mass of steel in a turning tool that would take a fair bit to cool down on its own.

 

[J-G]

Of course you shouldn't let the tool get too hot - but if it's HSS don't quench it when it does.

But what is the temp at which this becomes a problem?

HSS tooling will change (from 'steel' colour) to 'Light Yellow' at about 210ºC, 'Straw' at 220 - through to - 'Dark Blue' at 290 etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that you SHOULD cool any tool that is being sharpened (HSS or Carbon) during the process -- just NEVER let it get to a stage where the colour changes.

The term 'Quenching' has no place in a discussion about re-grinding tools, it is a term used in heat treatment of steel.

 

[ED65]

HSS tooling will change (from 'steel' colour) to 'Light Yellow' at about 210ºC, 'Straw' at 220 - through to - 'Dark Blue' at 290 etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that you SHOULD cool any tool that is being sharpened (HSS or Carbon) during the process -- just NEVER let it get to a stage where the colour changes.

I'd agree this is good practice, even if for no other reason that you can grind without ever needing to wear gloves which I think is an absolute must. However, there is ample user experience to strongly suggest that it's fine to grind HSS hot.

 

[J-G]

HSS tooling will change (from 'steel' colour) to 'Light Yellow' at about 210ºC, 'Straw' at 220 - through to - 'Dark Blue' at 290 etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that you SHOULD cool any tool that is being sharpened (HSS or Carbon) during the process -- just NEVER let it get to a stage where the colour changes.

I'd agree this is good practice, even if for no other reason that you can grind without ever needing to wear gloves which I think is an absolute must. However, there is ample user experience to strongly suggest that it's fine to grind HSS hot.

I'm not arguing that point at all. I do grind my HSS tools by hand and never with gloves. I'm talking here of Metalworking rather than handled wood-turning tools though - and I quickly know when the tool is 'too hot to handle' and that is well before it gets anywhere near changing colour!

The argument that HSS tools should not be 'Quenched' is down to the potential to introduce micro-crazing - which is certainly possible if the tool gets past 'straw' and into the 'red' (or beyond) and is then dunked in cold water.

Naturally this is more likely with the thin section of a Gouge, Skew or Scraper than with the tools I'm generally using.

 

[ED65]

Yes sorry I was confounding the issues of heat buildup and dunking in water there, which didn't do anything to unmuddy the waters!

 

[colinc]

Am not sure if my experience is relevant or typical, but I pass it on anyway....

Ten years ago in a fit of enthusiasm to do some turning at home, after having a go under supervision at a night class, I bought a Jubilee lathe and some chisels/gouges. Frankly, I just couldn’t make any progress, got frustrated, gave up and sold it all when I moved house.

Recently I decided I needed to be able to turn things to facilitate my general woodworking interests. I bought a 2nd hand Record CL4 lathe and some accessories and tools along with a Sorby Proedge and a set of jigs. The tools that came with it were a cheap Draper boxed set of six. Thing is, they aren’t great, but they work and suddenly I can turn things with increasing confidence and accuracy and much to my surprise am enjoying it.

I attribute the better results this time around to being able to properly, quickly and consistently sharpen the tools. I am sure the tools I had before were better quality, but they never achieved anything because of my inept attempts at sharpening them.

What I am saying is invest heavily just once in the kit for sharpening. Do that and you can do good work with sub-optimal tools or buy good ones with the confidence that you will not ruin them by poor sharpening technique. Also, something like the Proedge is a versatile addition to any woodworking workshop.

Oh, I just bought my first upgrade, a new roughing gouge!

Regards,

Colin

 

[MarkDennehy]

Thanks for all the recommendations folks, went ahead and got the rutlands beginners set this week, they'll do grand.

The course goes well, I've not killed myself yet, and I've even gotten to turn some green wood (and compared to dried wood it's so easy and light to cut that I'm now thinking green woodworkers are basically just cheating ). I'll get to use these now on monday night, and they're easily of the same standard as the school's tools, with slightly longer handles which suits me a lot more I think.

So thanks again everyone, appreciate the help!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Just my experience - when I started turning a few years ago I went on a course at Yandles - 2 or 3 days I think.

This taught be the basics - you may pick this up from a local woodturning club as members are usually quite helpful.

As far as sharpening is concerned the course used a Record 6" grinder with a white and grey stone. On its own this was fine unless you wanted a fancy grind on the tool in which case a Sorby type jig is required. A grey stone would be far too aggressive in my view.

I also started with an Axminster set of gouges - I see you have purchased similar from Rutlands. I worked on the basis that any deficiencies in output are down to user error not the tools so buying cheap initially is a good idea. Later you will add to the basic set selctively!