Ceramic Tile as Reference Plate?

[ByronBlack]

I was thinking of buying one of the small granite surface plates from axminster to help flatten my waterstones (with the aid of W&D), however, I have some large-ish glazed kitchen wall tiles spare, and on first inspection seem to be quite flat, I don't however have a decent straight-edge or means to really inspect the flatness.

Has anyone used a tile as a surface plate, are there any disadvantes to using one, and are the manufactured flat enough to be used to flatten a waterstone and/or flatten the sole of a plane?

 

[Philly]

Byron
I have used a granite tile before. I "mapped" it out with a straightedge and used the flattest section.
A piece of float glass from any glaziers is very flat, cheap and a perfect solution for flattening waterstones.
Cheers
Philly

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Phill

I know some float-glass is what I should get, but that means effort on my part to go and hunt down a glazer and then drive there whereas the tile is sitting in my nice warm house and requires zero effort

So, for flattening the waterstone, you think a ceramic tile would be ok? Or should I wait until i've purchased a straight-edge and some float-glass? I'm just trying to find some cheap alternatives at the moment (as ever)

 

[Philly]

Byron
The problem is if your reference surface is not flat your waterstones will take on a dished appearance. You don't want to do this on purpose (they'll do this automatically on their own with use!) So you need a flat surface (flat being a relative term - we are talking about +/- 1 thou over the surface of your plate)
A piece of fresh MDF could be used, or even the bed of your jointer of table saw (if you trust it!) I really would make the ffort to go by a local "cut it as you wait" glazier and get a piece, say 300 x 200mm ? Shouldn't cost more than a fiver and that is you sorted.
I bought one of Axminsters granite surface plates. So flat you wouldn't believe, they come with a certificate and a map of the surface. Flat beyond anything I will ever need, probably overkill. But it is the one thing in my shop that is truly flat, and I can reference most things from that. I know a lot of folks here don't believe in the need for something as flat as this but it certainly is handy!
Cheers
Philly

 

[ByronBlack]

Interesting points Phil,

I have neither a jointer nor tablesaw, or bandsaw, piller drill etc.. no table to speak of at all! So I guess it's imperative I get that float-glass.

Although, I was looking at the small granite surface plate from axminster (the 300mm wide one) at £35 it seems not a bad price. (Although the float-glass would be a lot cheaper as you suggest - any idea's on what is a good usable size?)

Would that 300mm granite surface plate be big enough to flatten a plane sole on?

 

[Anonymous]

Phill'ys right, float glass is fine. Only be sure to get 6 mm not 4mm (it will flex a bit) and dont get toughened either, its never flat as it gets melted soft then rehardened to toughen it, it passes back and forth over ceramic roller's to stop it bending over while it gets cooled back down through 2 seperate blast's of air. The pristine flatness gets ruined (toughened glass start's life as plain old float glass) Thats why when you look at reflection's in DGU's they are distorted, not a true mirror like image. Toughened glass is queer stuff, you can belt it on the face and you will have the hammer bounce back at you, yet just one tiny knock right on the edge and it will pop into thousand's of little pieces. And its unstable sometimes. I once saw an entire barrow load of toughened panes start popping themselves spontaneously into a great big heap :lol:

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Byron I have two plate glass perfectly flat and about 7 or 8mm that were once shelves in an old fridge I spotted at our local recycle dump/center, they come pretty cheap (free) and much better than any tile.

 

[Philipp]

Hi Byron,

Most wall tiles normally are not flat enough to be used for flattening waterstones on. That's because there is no procedure in the production process of tiles that controls for flatness, and the glaze in many cases is desired to show some relief and structure. Unless you take a polished stoneware tile. These tiles are polished after the last firing and therefore are very flat.
I use one in combination with different gradings of abrasive powders (aluminas from 63 µ down to 5 µm) for sharpening my plane irons ond chisels, and I am very satisfied. My waterstones mostly sit unused in their bath because they quickly get ruined, but the tile doesn't.
My advice: go a DIY-store and get a polished stoneware tile as a sample ("you know, I have to discuss this pattern and colour with my wife..."), maybe they have one with a slight damage that they give away for free.

And GBP 35 for a polished piece of granite? Well, I think the money can be invested in a better way...

There is also a simple and effective way of producing flat faces on clinker bricks without any machinery or sophisticated device - only with your hands. If you are interested I could try to translate a description of this procedure from German.

Good luck and best regards
Philipp

 

[j]

I use a piece of 8mm Glass that used to be a shelf in a bathroom cabinet.
With a bit of wet&dry it doesn't take long to flatten the stone.

HTH
J

 

[Vormulac]

Hi Bryon,

I have the smaller of the two granite plates from Axminster and it's flatter than a flat thing and reassuringly heavy and robust. I use it for scarysharpening and although I haven't used it yet for flattening my waterstones, I was looking at it last night and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be big enough.
As Philly said, it's good to know that it is one item that you can rely on to be absolutely flat when flat is what you need.

V.

 

[George_N]

Phill'ys right, float glass is fine. Only be sure to get 6 mm not 4mm (it will flex a bit) and dont get toughened either, its never flat as it gets melted soft then rehardened to toughen it, it passes back and forth over ceramic roller's to stop it bending over while it gets cooled back down through 2 seperate blast's of air. The pristine flatness gets ruined (toughened glass start's life as plain old float glass) Thats why when you look at reflection's in DGU's they are distorted, not a true mirror like image. Toughened glass is queer stuff, you can belt it on the face and you will have the hammer bounce back at you, yet just one tiny knock right on the edge and it will pop into thousand's of little pieces. And its unstable sometimes. I once saw an entire barrow load of toughened panes start popping themselves spontaneously into a great big heap :lol:

I just bought a piece of toughened glass too . I was in my local Makro cash-and-carry the other day and saw these glass table protectors 450x200x12 mm thick and I thought :idea:, that would be ideal as a flat surface for plane fettling etc. Oh well, I guess it will get used on the dining table after all.

 

[bugbear]

I was thinking of buying one of the small granite surface plates from axminster to help flatten my waterstones (with the aid of W&D), however, I have some large-ish glazed kitchen wall tiles spare, and on first inspection seem to be quite flat, I don't however have a decent straight-edge or means to really inspect the flatness.

Has anyone used a tile as a surface plate, are there any disadvantes to using one, and are the manufactured flat enough to be used to flatten a waterstone and/or flatten the sole of a plane?

The flatness of anything other than a surface plate is rather variable.

In particular, do not be decieved by a polished surface (e.g. kitchchen worktop). These are cut (for shape and size) and then polished. THe polishing operation is about appearance and texture, and if the process introduced minor variations in flatness, it wouldn't matter - to the maker.

However.

For edgetool sharpening (scary-sharp) the actually flatness tolerance is very wide; As long ar your reference is flat over 2 1/2" (the widest blade most of us will deal with), it's flat enough. Glass is easily this flat, although rather flexible. I would advocate placing the glass on a supportive medium (e.g. router mat) over a fairly flat rigid surface (e.g. MDF), to allow the glass to "be itself"

For waterstones, the above approach should also be good enough.

For flattening a plane sole, the requirments are rather more strenuous; you need a surface that it flat to the desired accuracy over the length of the plane - and even a #4 is 9" long.

Further, the "usually recommended way" of flattening a plane ("lapping"), involves high working pressures, which will tend to distort your surface, even if it were flat to start with.

Lapping also requires a surface a good deal larger than your plane, to allow free movement, and to minimise "edge effects"

For these reasons, I advocate a different approach to plane sole flattening, which I claim (with evidence and testimonials) is both accurate and effective.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/flatten.html

BugBear

 

[CONGER]

Gentlemen... head off to your local stonemason (often to be found close to the graveyard). He ALWAYS has a skip full of off-cuts, and he is ALWAYS glad to get rid of what he can (it costs him $$ to have them in the skip). Most cut, and all 'polished' stone is perfectly fine for flattening sharpening stones... and when your 'reference' stones are no longer flat, just heave them (neighbours cat?), and go back to the stonemason for replacements.

Alternatively, one could pay a midnight visit to the graveyard!

-gerard-

 

[bugbear]

Gentlemen... head off to your local stonemason (often to be found close to the graveyard). He ALWAYS has a skip full of off-cuts, and he is ALWAYS glad to get rid of what he can (it costs him $$ to have them in the skip). Most cut, and all 'polished' stone is perfectly fine for flattening sharpening stones...

Yep. Done that. Granite offcut, Lovely for sharpening. And only a 1/16" dip in 12"...

My normal scary-sharp surface is actually glass, backed by 1/3" mahogony over 2" plywood. I added the mahogony skin to the ply (3 glued layers of 18mm), and then planed it very carefully using my 24" straightedge as a reference.

BTW, I've never bothed with a surface plate bigger than my 9"x12" (big enough for a #5, worked diagonally), since there's good evidence that the longer Bailey planes flex too much for thou tolerance flattening to be worthwhile, or even meaningful (*)

BugBear

(*) accuracy need rigidity as a starting point; see Mr Whitworth

 

[CONGER]

bugbear!

You went to the wrong skip... the one at the back contains the offcuts from the 'toffs' gravestones... they are FLAT (enogh!).

The 3 other skips are leftovers from the paupers (like moi). Btw... ff you are in doubt, sneak a straight edge along wif ya.

-ger-

 

[ByronBlack]

Is it me, or there something inherantly creepy and slightly morally wrong pillaging from a gravestone skip. Think i'll stick to a bit of glass - if and when I can make the effort to go and find some.

 

[Alf]

Pillaging, yeah. Going and asking if it's okay? Don't see why not. It's not much use for anything else as far as I know.

Mind you I thought you were going to say there was something inherantly creepy and slightly morally wrong with this obsession with "flat" and I was about to whole-heartedly agree. :lol: :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

If you just want to get on with some woodwork then I'd bin the waterstones - they wear out too fast, and get an oil-stone, which will last for life.
Anyway the obsessive pursuit of flatness is misleading - it has little to do with woodwork believe me, and can safely be ignored - unless it's the tools which interest you more.

chers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

I appreciate the differing opinion Grimsdale, but i'm quite happy with my waterstones thank you. You seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder (in the kindest respect) about sharpening/flattening methods - if you don't deem it worth the hassle for you then thats great, but not nessacarily the same for others.

I happen to think that Mr Charlesworth methods are excellent, and clearly show the benefits of a flat blade, and flat stones, his methods don't take particularly long either, so I see no problem in aiming for a quality tool, and good performance, to ignore this completely as you are suggesting is what in my mind is misleading.

As someone mentioned somwhere else, it takes some of the variables out of woodworking for the beginner, and for more expeirenced people like youself 'debunking' these ideas is only going to increase the frustration of new woodworkers as they struggle to get the best out of their tools.

Anyways, I appreciate your insights, and don't take this as an afront, it's all in good humour and respect.

 

[Anonymous]

Not a chip on the shoulder - I just like to slip in a reality check every now and then :lol:

regards
Jacob