Central Heating - Multiple Zones?

[Dibs-h]

All makes sense Dibs - cheaper to get a new wife? :roll:

I've got the opposite in that wifie is hot one mitute and cold the next whilst I like a constant comfortable temp though our room thermostat is never above 18 deg.
I think I'm kept warm by the gallons of coffee I drink :wink:

I've changed a number of our rads and was astonished at how much hotter they are and much quicker to heat up . Old ones are about 30 years now.

Bob

Lons.

Thankfully she is almost entirely self-financing, so can't really complain, other than she keeps adding to my my "work-list."

She, I suspect like a lot of wives, as a knackered thermostat. Middle of summer - 22c and she's cold at night. So on with the thicker duvet and me sweating to death! Can't win really!

Having a bit of a Google on Wireless Room Stats - any recommendations? Don't want to shell out more than required, but don't want to replace it on a regular basis either.

Rog - turning the TRV right up in the room that you are in. That makes sense as to how you ensure you don't get issues with taking the Wireless stat around with you.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[RogerM]

We've been very pleased with the Drayton RF1 wireless stats. Very easy to set up and use. I believe they have been superceded now, but I suspect the replacement will be just fine.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I would ignore jeff howells article, it`s all well and good writing a article which is his own opinion, but the article doesn`t take into consideration the different types of houses cob, concrete block, cavity wall insulation, vents above windows, double glazing ect ect... similar single minded articles were written stating that lower sulphur heating oil would cause aga`s and rayburns to go wrong, which is a load of rubbish there was alot more variable factors.

i would defiantly consider a two zone system for upstairs and downstairs (most new houses are these days anyway with underfloor heating) however i wold forget about programmable room thermostats just use a normal wireless room stat ideally a honeywell (like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... Categories its very reliable and doesn`t require linking to the base unit) then use a dual channel programmer to control the zones.

i would stay away from y plan zone vales, fit individual zone valves when they go wrong it will be easier and cheaper to repair them, the wirings is also easier to configure.

go for a auto bypass don`t use a radiator they only cost around £15 and they limit central heating throttle noise through radiators as the trv`s close down.

Jolly good advice above, in every respect.

We've got a big place with two heating zones. There are three individual valves (heating, ground floor and bedrooms). The heating has been installed for a few years (about eight, IIRC), and in that time I've had to change the hot water valve (which does the most work) three times.

The design of these valves is complete rubbish - inherently unreliable: On a 2-port valve, when it's open, a small induction motor is continually energised, pulling against a strong spring. There is a mechanical gearbox, but also metal-on-plastic gearing, and so on. I think they are deliberately designed to fail.

If you can, buy valves from a well-known manufacturer, and that allow the mechanism to be quickly unclipped from the water valve part for replacement. They will fail, but it'll most probably be the electrics.

 

[wobblycogs]

I believe the valve you are describing is referred to as a spring return valve - I agree they are a stupid design but it is what's used in most heating systems in the UK.

We have the alternative which is a MOMO valve (motor on, motor off) e.g the valve is motor driven open and closed. As far as I know the only brand you can get in the UK is made by Sunvic. So far we haven't had a problem but a lot of plumbers we've spoken to think MOMO is the work of the devil and they come up with the most preposterous reasons why the valve will fail early. The most common reason is that the motor is powered up twice as often compared to a spring return. That, of course, forgets the fact that with a spring return the motor is full energized and stalled when in the open state! Personally I think most plumbers are just scared of something different as a MOMO requires an additional control wire to be connected.

 

[Dibs-h]

I believe the valve you are describing is referred to as a spring return valve - I agree they are a stupid design but it is what's used in most heating systems in the UK.

We have the alternative which is a MOMO valve (motor on, motor off) e.g the valve is motor driven open and closed. As far as I know the only brand you can get in the UK is made by Sunvic. So far we haven't had a problem but a lot of plumbers we've spoken to think MOMO is the work of the devil and they come up with the most preposterous reasons why the valve will fail early. The most common reason is that the motor is powered up twice as often compared to a spring return. That, of course, forgets the fact that with a spring return the motor is full energized and stalled when in the open state! Personally I think most plumbers are just scared of something different as a MOMO requires an additional control wire to be connected.

I'd much rather have a MOMO valve than one that's energised all the time. Any model number?

Cheers

Dibs

 

[Eric The Viking]

Personally I think most plumbers are just scared of something different as a MOMO requires an additional control wire to be connected.

Yup, that's my experience too. For example Microbore is also the spawn of Satan and cannot be mixed with 15mm rad piping, Sir.

I wasn't aware you could get such valves here - good idea. I'll investigate, as anything that improves reliability has to be a good thing.

 

[wobblycogs]

This is what we have: http://www.sunvic.co.uk/momo_valves.htm

 

[YorkshireDave]

Dibs. Are you saying you're fitting UFH upstairs and simply parquet downstairs? Where is your kingspan going?

 

[Dibs-h]

Dibs. Are you saying you're fitting UFH upstairs and simply parquet downstairs? Where is your kingspan going?

The UFH will go on all 3 floors (ground, 1st and loft). I plan to nail roofing laths to the side of the joists, say 3.5" down, cut and fit 1/2" ply and sit the 2" kingspan on that. Then run the pipework between the joists and then on the upper 2 floors, lay the floorboards down.

On the ground floor it will be slightly different in that I'll then lay 1/2" ply down over the lot and then parquet over the lot.

In all cases - there will be a dry screed (lightweight) mix between and over the pipes.

Well that's the plan - obviously there will have to be some calculations for the heat transfer etc. and possibly a slight design adjustment for the ground floor. Did the load bearing calcs ages ago and the joists are more than up to the job of the slightly heavier load, i.e. mid span deflections are well within the L/360 or whatever it was.

Dibs

 

[Dibs-h]

Mark

I was going to get 2 wireless stats (non program) or 1 wired and 1 wireless, but came across these on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... _500wt_949

and thought that for the price - I couldn't go wrong. Siemens are a good\quality brand in my eyes - what do you think?

Cheers

Dibs

 

[sparkymarky]

I was going to get 2 wireless stats (non program) or 1 wired and 1 wireless, but came across these on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... _500wt_949

and thought that for the price - I couldn't go wrong. Siemens are a good\quality brand in my eyes - what do you think?

i would generally only recommend honeywell controls for wireless room thermostats, they are one of the main players in the heating controls sector, as a boiler engineer i see a fair few faulty wireless room stats however these have mainly been the sunvic ones i have also replaced a few of the the drayton stats too, if i replace a stat it would be with a honeywell stat because although i know they are more expensive they are a much better quality and i have found so far i haven`t had one fail on me. i mainly fit the honeywell Y6630D1007 purely because of ease of adjusting the temperature on the analog wheel rather than using the digital buttons or controls. i know if you keep an eye out on ebay they can go cheap but i normally buy them from the local merchants for around £60-£65 +vat.

siemens although a quality brand for many household appliances do not specialise in heating controls that perhaps reflects in the quality of heating controls when compared to a danfoss or honeywell product.

 

[Dibs-h]

Mark

Got 2 (new) Honeywell Y6630D1007 stats off EBay today for < £80 for the pair. Programmer - I was looking at the following,

http://www.screwfix.com/p/horstmann-cen ... mmer/11225

What do you think?

Dibs

edit: had a chat with my "tame" heating chap and he's suggesting the following http://www.screwfix.com/p/siemens-rwb29 ... mmer/65118 as you can advance both channels, whereas you can only advance 1 channel on the Horstmann.

 

[sparkymarky]

this is one of the best programmers available on the market at the moment (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honeywell-st9 ... 500wt_1156)

the honeywell st9400 can +1 hour to +3 hour it can also be advanced. the time is also atomic locked so it doesn`t need the time setting, it also changes automatically for summer / winter times.

hth, mark.

 

[Dibs-h]

this is one of the best programmers available on the market at the moment (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honeywell-st9 ... 500wt_1156)

the honeywell st9400 can +1 hour to +3 hour it can also be advanced. the time is also atomic locked so it doesn`t need the time setting, it also changes automatically for summer / winter times.

hth, mark.

Cheers Mark

Bought a pair of Sunvic Momo 2 port valves and the Siemens WRB29, unfortunately saw your post a bit on the late side.

Now try to get my head round the wiring which hopefully shouldn't be too much of a headache. Will let you know how I get on.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[OLD]

This wiring guide may be of some use quite easy to adapt to other makes.
http://www.honeywellukwater.com/downloads/General-Information/

 

[Eric The Viking]

I tidied ours up (3 timers + 3 valves) with a couple of these:



It was quicker than drilling plastic boxes, etc., and now I can find the circuits and test them easily, if needs be. The original installation was a rats' nest.

Someone mentioned the mo-mo valves use an extra wire -- does that change the basic circuit, or is it for a limit microswitch of some sort? They do sound like a good idea...

 

[Dibs-h]

Someone mentioned the mo-mo valves use an extra wire -- does that change the basic circuit, or is it for a limit microswitch of some sort? They do sound like a good idea...

Looking at the wiring diagram - they seem to have an extra wire (5 in total). The 5th wire is Green\Yellow and goes to earth. Cheers for the wiring centre advice - will be looking to get something similar.

Here's a picture of the wiring diagram,

HIH

Dibs

 

[YorkshireDave]

If it's running costs that are the motivator here, zoning will contribute but putting an optimiser and compensator in will save you even more. An optimiser is a device that looks at what time you wish the house to be at operating temp, looks at inside and outside temps and then calculates exactly when the boiler should start so that no fuel is wasted but the correct temp is ready when you want it to be. A compensator is a valve that modulates the boiler flow temp so that when the space is close to its set point less heat is put into the water. This effectively stops overshoot and again reduces energy consumption.
Worcester boilers can all have (I think) an R101 controller fitted and this does what I'm talking about. Couple this with remote head TRVs and you have an eminently controllable and energy efficient domestic heating system.

 

[Dibs-h]

If it's running costs that are the motivator here, zoning will contribute but putting an optimiser and compensator in will save you even more. An optimiser is a device that looks at what time you wish the house to be at operating temp, looks at inside and outside temps and then calculates exactly when the boiler should start so that no fuel is wasted but the correct temp is ready when you want it to be. A compensator is a valve that modulates the boiler flow temp so that when the space is close to its set point less heat is put into the water. This effectively stops overshoot and again reduces energy consumption.
Worcester boilers can all have (I think) an R101 controller fitted and this does what I'm talking about. Couple this with remote head TRVs and you have an eminently controllable and energy efficient domestic heating system.

Do you mean weather compensation units? Those I'm familiar with - the modulating valve thingy to prevent overshoot, not heard of that before.

Will be looking at weather compensation when the UFH goes in along with the thermal store.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[YorkshireDave]

I think you mean the optimiser - a complex 'sliding' time clock?

Basically its called a compensated flow system. Most systems are designed to operate at (cope with) say -5degs c. At that temp the boiler pumps out a system flow temp of 70degs c (ish). Ones rads are then sized to put sufficient heat into the building to bring to its set point. As teh outside temp warms up (gets closer to the set point) heat is still needed but not quite as much. So, the system calculates what the flow temp should be in order to reach set point and not over shoot (which is where all the wasted energy goes).

Bosch do a great control for about £100 that has an outside air sensor with it. It links directly into the boiler via its networking ability. I have to say its a bit of a sod to get to know but once set correctly its superb. It has an ability to put in offset for the room sensor (that means if your sensor is in the hall and reads 18c when you're toasty in the sitting room at 21c you can put in an 'offset' of 3c effectively fooling the sensor that you've reached set point. It also has night set back so when its really cold the system doesn't switch off just lowers the space temp to say 14c during the night so nowt freezes. It also has an inhibit temp so that if the outside temp is at a point the heating won't come on for no one (thereby stopping the significant other putting the htg on when its a tad chilly in but not out ;-)

All in all a FAB piece of kit that will save a fortune over the years.

D