Carving Chisels - help with ID and value

[Mike.S]

Hello all

Not being an expert carver I wish to identify and value a collection of carving chisels I've acquired.

Here's an overshot:

Close ups can be viewed in my Photobucket Album here.

There seems to be mainly gouges (l/h side, both rows), predominantly with bevels on the outside (out-cannel?) but there's some straights, skews and bent/curly ones! Makers are largely Addis (SJ Addis, JB Addis & Sons etc) and Herring Bros but there's a few others, including Marples, Henry Taylor and J Howarth.

Two names I'd appreciate help with are 'M&C London' and one that looks like 'Copley, London' - fairly sure about the name length but the first and third letters are tricky, so it's *o*ley, London. Any ideas who either might be?

The chisels pointing down (top row) are V in section and those at top-right are a mixture of straight and curly odds and sods I'm not sure about. Bottom right are files and stones, presumably for sharpening and my favourite chisel (based on appearance :shock: :!: ) which is made by SJ Addis and has an octagonal handle.

Besides the above questions I'd appreciate help in identifying any individual chisels that might be 'of value' and those that might be better of disposed as a job lot and/or which names are 'better' than others and/or what shapes are popular.

If anyone has a link to a decent guide on carving chisel numbering system (which several carry) and/or descriptions I'd be very greatful.

Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm out my depth and need to dispose of them before the house move

 

[JohnPW]

You could let the buyer decide the "value". Take good photos and describe accurately (condition, sizes, shapes, names etc) and you should get the "market value".

 

[marcros]

i have bought a few on ebay in the past- I would normally try to pay about a tenner to twelve pounds each for a "good" old brand. Herring bros is my personal favourite, but addis are up there, and no doubt others.

Sometimes I have lost out at that price, others I have bought and were in reasonable condition, other than needing a sharpen. so it tells me it is there, or there abouts- perhaps a little low.

Tool prices seem to have fallen a little in the last few months though.

As always to maximise value, do some research (the ashley iles catalogue is useful here) and try to give sizes and sweep numbers. The fact that handles do not match- as users anyway- is a positive- makes it easier to grab the one that you want. In my limited experience, job lots seem to hit a ceiling price of a couple of hundred quid at most- beyond that you are effectively throwing them in for nothing. Selling as single pieces will probably get you far more money as people add to a collection without the risk of getting duplicates of what they have.

 

[D_W]

I would list tools separately, especially bent gouges and V gouges.

If you want to sell tools in groups, pairs, whatever, match brands together. People on Ebay are bizarre about buying things paired with something they don't want. They may pay less for a pair than they would for the item of the two that they want listed singly.

Make sure you list the number printed on the tool and give its width in your listings so people who are searching (presume that's the sweep).

 

[Mr_P]

Good advice from John.

I sold an unmarked bevel edged earlier this year, nearly put it on BIN for £20 but two people took a fancy to it and it went for nearly £100, I'm still confused.

 

[marcros]

your photograph 7/9 look interesting. i might be interested in those when you find out a value- I have never seen them quite like that, although ashley iles do a series of punches that do a similar task.

 

[monkeybiter]

This might help to ID, if you've any Pfeils let me know and I'll add their slightly different system.

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/graphics/london_pattern_carving_chisels.jpg

For s/h prices here's an example, you can find cheaper..
http://www.oldtools.co.uk/45-carving-tools

I may be interested in a few if you do decide to split them up.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The Ashley Iles catalogue gives illustrations and sweep numbers for the tools they make, which correspond to the Sheffield List (i.e. London Pattern), on pages 8 to 17 - http://www.ashleyiles.co.uk/Catalogue.pdf - there's also a couple of pages illustrating the steps in forging and grinding a carving tool, and of course, all their other products are listed. Henry Taylor use an eccentric numbering system of their own, which is probably best deciphered by reference to their catalogue.

Addis and Herring are probably the two most sought after vintage makers of carving tools; current prices are maybe best gauged by an advanced search on Ebay for recently sold items.

 

[Lons]

All good advice Mike and I'd list them singly or in pairs to maximise their value.

I have a collection of 25 to sell, very similar to many of yours, when I get around to it.

Bob

 

[Mike.S]

Thank you all for the responses. The links look interesting - I shall read later, not least to educate myself regarding accurate descriptions.

The concensus seems to be to list them separately, or pairs at most in order to maximise value. List as 'auction' with a start say around £5-£8 and hope the market realises prices of £10+ (as JohnPW states)?

I'm currently selling some tools on ebay and have been searching for 'sold' prices but it seems to me it's a bit of a lottery - evidence that people listing at say £1.99 are only getting a couple of bids whereas the same/very similar item with a BIN of £15 sells just as well. I guess that' where the initial research/valuation comes in.

Glad that Herring and Addis are 'desirable' names. Any thoughts on the other two I mentioned: M&C London and 'Copley'?

marcros - interest noted. I think they're used for embossing gold leaf on books, etc. Some are listed on ebay (but with handles) currently and are attacting bidders. At least one of the three is made by Marples. I'll PM you when I have a value in mind.

monkeybiter - interest noted. I think the volume of tools I have to sell might aggravate the Moderators and certain members as I'd risk crossing into the 'business mode' even though it's not a business for me. If you want to PM me with those you're interested in I'll gladly quote you a price (i.e. before listing them elsewhere) which, of course, you'll be under no obligation to agree with

 

[Mike.S]

I sold an unmarked bevel edged earlier this year, nearly put it on BIN for £20 but two people took a fancy to it and it went for nearly £100, I'm still confused.

Wow, 5 x it's perceived (by you) value! Well done, especially for an unmarked item.

ebay can be weird at times. I've seen items ignored for a week and once relisted (same start price) bidders fighting to get it. Other sellers (e.g. barnes1234 or something like that) get bids for 2nd hand goods above what you can buy them for brand new #-o

 

[AndyT]

marcros - interest noted. I think they're used for embossing gold leaf on books, etc. Some are listed on ebay (but with handles) currently and are attracting bidders. At least one of the three is made by Marples.

There are two different but similar tools for two trades. Yours, which are all steel, are punches for adding texture to the background around a carving. They were available commercially but would often be user made by filing the end of a suitable oddment of steel. Tools for decorating leather look similar at the business end but do have handles so that they can be held in a flame and heated up. So your haul is all carving tools, and very nice ones at that.

TATHS has a brief note about carving tools which may be useful to you

http://taths.org.uk/tools-and-trades/notes/53-tn-03-01-woodcarving-chisels.

 

[Lons]

marcros - interest noted. I think they're used for embossing gold leaf on books, etc. Some are listed on ebay (but with handles) currently and are attracting bidders. At least one of the three is made by Marples.

There are two different but similar tools for two trades. Yours, which are all steel, are punches for adding texture to the background around a carving. They were available commercially but would often be user made by filing the end of a suitable oddment of steel. Tools for decorating leather look similar at the business end but do have handles so that they can be held in a flame and heated up. So your haul is all carving tools, and very nice ones at that.

TATHS has a brief note about carving tools which may be useful to you

http://taths.org.uk/tools-and-trades/notes/53-tn-03-01-woodcarving-chisels.

+1
Andy beat me to it. I have a couple but usually just make my own by drilling and filing square tool steel. These can be sought after Mike but I don't know values.

Bob

 

[Mike.S]

Thank you Andy and Bob.

What you say makes sense, especially as they were amongst carving tools and were previously owned by an antique furniture restorer. I thought they may have been used to apply gold leaf to, for example, the leather cover on desk tops but texturing wooden carvings makes more sense - especially as there's no handle.

At least I can research the value amongst the correct tools now

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Copley seems a slightly elusive maker - assuming that the mark is 'Copley'. Gary at Hackney Tools put out a request for information, and had a couple of respondents - http://hackneytools.com/2014/08/copley-anyone/ - which isn't conclusive, but suggests that an Albert Copley was an assembler of tool parts produced by others. It's possible that he had carving tools forged with his trademark stamped on. I've not followed every link in the comments; there may be better information there.

 

[Doris]

As a carver. I don't care what brand of gouge it is personally. If its in good nick then who cares? I'd be interested in some of the tiny ones and the fishtail ones.

 

[Mike.S]

Copley seems a slightly elusive maker - assuming that the mark is 'Copley'. Gary at Hackney Tools put out a request for information, and had a couple of respondents - http://hackneytools.com/2014/08/copley-anyone/ - which isn't conclusive, but suggests that an Albert Copley was an assembler of tool parts produced by others. It's possible that he had carving tools forged with his trademark stamped on. I've not followed every link in the comments; there may be better information there.

Thanks CC.

By following the links I eventually found other posts which all pointed me to Copley being a saw maker, amongst other tools. A quick look at Simon Barley's BSSM book and I see there were 5 Copley's in London in the second half of the 19th century but not much is known (including whether the 5 were related). The logo shown in the book matches that on my gouge so that confirms the name at least. Copley is described as "high class makers of their own saws" and one - Alexander Copley - as being a tool dealer (so perhaps branded Copley rather than made by them?).

I've since seen a few other Copley gouges listed for sale but they seem rare.

 

[Lons]

As a carver. I don't care what brand of gouge it is personally. If its in good nick then who cares?

As a carver I actually do care but not because of the label. The brand name just means that you're almost certain to get good quality steel and a well made tool.
My favourite old makers for that reason are very definitely Addis, all the family variants and modern chisels are Pfeil.
There are of course many collectors out there who buy for a different reason in common with many forum members who collect planes, saws etc. etc.

cheers
Bob

 

[bugbear]

As a carver. I don't care what brand of gouge it is personally. If its in good nick then who cares?

As a carver I actually do care but not because of the label. The brand name just means that you're almost certain to get good quality steel and a well made tool.

Yeah - it's not the brand or label that's important per se, it's the reliable correlation of brand with quality.

Or, put in normal English, Addis chisels are good.

BugBear

 

[Argus]

As a carver and occasional buyer of carving gouges, here is what I look for:

1 - Sweep-width listings are nominal: 1/4", 5/16, 1/2 etc. but the actual width of the blade at the inside of the gouge is very useful to know if you can measure it.

2 - The sweep itself: as has been said there are many variants, Continental numbering, London list etc.; add to that manufacturing variants over the past 100 odd years and no two gouges of the same size are going to be identical. However, the London list is pretty much universally used and I personally stick to that. I believe that Chris Pye has a scaled copy that can be downloaded from his site.

3 - Handles can be fascinating but it helps enormously to post a good picture of the most important bit in a carving gouge which is the inside flute near the cutting tip. They are rarely as smooth as the backs of flat chisels (and don't need to be) but perform the same function. What I'm looking for is clean metal and the absence of pitting near the cutting edge. A few small striations and some surface rust are not important, because carvers add a tiny secondary bevel on the in-channel section, but deep pits render the gouge next to useless. The appearance of backs is a matter of just that - appearance; it's the inside that matters.

Hope that this helps and good luck