carbide tipped bandsaw blade

[Ian]

Hi

Does anyone know if is possible to buy a carbide tipped bandsaw blade for an axminster 4300 bandsaw? I do quite a bit of resawing and cutting veneers and was wondering if you can buy blades to fit this model.

It would certainly be more cost effective than steel ones as they can also be resharpened.

:wink:

many thanks

Ian

 

[Scrit]

Hi Ian

The blade you probably require is a Lenox Trimaster TCT blade. This is a 2 to 3tpi vari-pitch hook tooth blade and is very aggressive but has excellent wear characteristics. I'd suggest that you consider a 1/2in body blade rather than a 3/4in blade. The reason is that these TCT blades are on extremely heavy (i.e. thick) 0.025in bodies (3/4in and bigger blades are on 0.035in) and you'll need to go for a narrower size blade that the (theoretical) maximum size of your machine in order to achieve the 25,000 lbs (minimum) of tension required. On the 1/2in Trimaster that is probably the equavalent of tensioning a "normal" thn carbon steel 1in blade. These blades are often ordered in ready made from the USA, although I do know of a trade supplier here in the North West who makes-up blades from coil stock to order (and who has the facilities to resharpen). These blades are expensive to resharpen but will probably last for years in a hobby/small shop environment

A quote from an earlier thread.....

Be a little prepared for sticker shock if you haven't priced carbide bandsaw blades before. My BS takes 133" length blades. A 3/4" wide Tri-Master costs me about $140 US.

So expect to pay circa £90 to £100 for a blade to fit your machine

Scrit

 

[Andy Pullen]

Isn't the King Resaw the blade to get for this ? Do not know where you would get it in this country though. Regards Andy

 

[Scrit]

The problem is that they (Resaw King) are only available from Laguna Tools in the USA and nowhere else at present - a bit far to send them back if you get a problem. Both Lenox and Simmonds (another American manufacturer of TCT band saw blade stock) have stocks of TCT blade stock on the shelf in the UK.

Another alternative might be stellite, although personally I know of no company putting stellite tips on blade body narrower than 2-1/2in (Stellite tipped blades are produced by welding "gobs" of stellite onto the blade then 5-axis grinding to the required shape)

I've been using Trimasters for about 6 years now (3/4in and 1-1/4in on a 28in Agazanni bandsaw with a feeder) and they are quite impressive performers. They also seem to last forever.....

Scrit

 

[desmoengine]

hi folks
ref resawking blades i got one last year from a chap in uk , the blade was supplied direct from germany.
i now have to organise a resharpen ,probably return to germany.
the blade i got is 3tpi 1" deep & 135" long it cost me approx £75
the finish cuts (when Sherp) were excelent.
i will try to find the contactt details
dave w

 

[Ian]

thanks guys for the replys and yes dave them details would be great

Ian

 

[iajon69]

Have you considered using M42 Bi-Metal blades?
M42 Bi-Metal blades are made from harder material than standard bandsaw blades so last a lot longer.
Other advantages are that they are a lot cheaper than carbide tipped blades – between £20 and £28 for blades for your machine; they are readily available and available in .025, .032 & .035 gauges so tensioning the blades wouldn’t be a problem.

Ian

 

[Scrit]

Dave -

How are you managing to tension that blade, given that a 1in TCT blade is probably on a .035in or .040in M42 body - way too thick for the average 16in fabricated bandsaw to tension to the required 25,000 to 30,000 PSI?

Ian -

The Lenox distributor in Northern Ireland are:

Lister Machine Tools
Unit 10 Boucher Business Centre
Apollo Road
Boucher Road
Belfast
BT12 6HP
Northern Ireland

Tel: 02890-663804
Fax: 02890-663801

and the blade I'd suggest looking at is:

Lenox Trimaster III 1/2in (on 0.025in body) 3tpi hook tooth

(the vari-pitch is apparently available only from 1in wide and upwards). There's a review of the TriMaster blades here which shows that even running at sub-optimal rtension they can achieve remarkable results, although personally I reckon that trying to tension a 1in blade on a machine with a (theoretical) 1in capacity will be like trying to cram a baby elephant inside a Mini :roll:

Bear in mind that for resawing 10in material the optimal blade pitch is really 1 to 1-1/2tpi so a 3tpi will require a slow feed to clear the swarf

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

Have you considered using M42 Bi-Metal blades?

........they are readily available and available in .025, .032 & .035 gauges so tensioning the blades wouldn’t be a problem.

Bimetallic blades are on the same back thickness as the carbide tippeds (0.025 and 0.035in) and according to the Lenox technical rep. They also require the same beam strength (25,000 to 30,000psi), so tensioning is going to be the same sort of problem with them as for carbides or stellites on a lightweight machine (and by that I mean anything under 24in/600mm wheel). Plain carbon steel blades are often 0.015 to 0.025in thick and require a lower optimum tension (15,000 to 20,000psi) so they're much easier to tension on smaller blades - problem is as you so rightly point out they wear out faster than bimetallics. The biggest problem I've found with bimetallics is that there seem to be very few made with the pitch/set you require for woodworking. Many of them are fine tooth and wavy set for metals.

Scrit

 

[iajon69]

The biggest problem I've found with bimetallics is that there seem to be very few made with the pitch/set you require for woodworking. Many of them are fine tooth and wavy set for metals.

Scrit

There’s a lot more choice of tooth pitch and tooth set available now than there used to be and the vari-tooth blades seem to work a treat cutting wood.
2/3 vari-tooth is great for cutting thick material and a 6/10 vari-tooth is a great general purpose blade.
The only problem is that there's a better choice of tooth pitches in the wider blades and not a lot of choice in 1/2" and under.
The beauty of a vari-tooth blade is that you can cut different thickness materials without having to change the blade
You have to make sure that the tooth shape is suitable for wood cutting though as there’s quite a lot of Bi-Metal blades with a negative hook that’s not suitable for wood cutting.
Wavy set tends to be used on the very fine blades - some 14tpi but usually 24 and 32tpi.

Never had a problem with tensioning the bi-metal blades – would recommend releasing the tension from the blade overnight or if the machine isn’t being used for a while though, which should be done anyway

Have run 1/2" Bi-Metal blades on an 87" machine with no problems

 

[Alan Holtham]

I had a brief flirtation with TCT bandsaw blades some years ago when I needed to cut vast amounts of very abrasive exotics. I had one made at great expense and found that although it continued cutting for considerably longer than anything else, the backing material actually fatigued at the same rate as a normal blade and broke well before the teeth were anywhere near blunt. Never got to the stage of needing it resharpening, and also had problems tensioning it as has been mentioned already.

In the end we settled on skip tooth bi metal blades which seemed to be a good compromise between cost and longevity. Personally I would go down this route but would be interested to hear other peoples experience of TCT.

cheers,

Alan

 

[Scrit]

Personally I would go down this route but would be interested to hear other peoples experience of TCT.

Hi Alan

My main experience has been of running TCT blades on a 28in fabricated bandsaw (203in long and capable of tensioning a 1-1/4in x 0.040in TCT blade to 30,000psi) and more recently on a cast-iron 16in bandsaw (140in long and tensioning a 3/4in x 0.035in TCT blade to about 22,000psi - the tension spring is a bit cream crackered and needs retempering). Certainly on the bigger saw the blades just last and last and the ability to go to a variable pitch over a fixed pitch with 1in and wider blades means that the blade can and does run with less harmonic vibration. Less vibration translated into an ability to saw 1mm thick veneers consistently (albeit with the aid of a power feeder), but, and it's a big but, to tension a 1in TCT blade to 25,000psi requires a substantial bandsaw - I reckon that manufacturer's figures about blade capacity (width) are pretty worthless in this area and very few if any smaller (sub 24in) modern fabricated machines are capable of tensioning wider (1in and up) TCT blades. Incidentally I did try 3/4in Simmonds TCT blade on a Startrite 352 a couple of years back and had problems with tensioning it - the maximum tension was always around the 14,000psi mark - that meant the blade could deflect in cut and produce a coarser cut than the big saw would. It, too, broke prematurely. The Simmonds rep informed me that this was due to the blade having not been tensioned enough in service, although because the blade had been deliberately ordered to almost maximum length taking an inch out of the blade and rewelding proved relatively cheap. Worthwhile on a £75 blade but pretty pointless on a £13 blade.

I'm surprised that you think a bimetallic would be any better because bimetallic blades tend to share the same thicker body that is found on TCTs. Out of interest what was the size of the blade you were using and were you able to check the blade tension using a tension gauge?

Scrit

 

[Alan Holtham]

Hi Scrit,

Believe it or not the TCT blades we were experimenting with were only
1/2" wide to fit the hobby type of machine. Can't remember who we got to make them up, it was either NLS or Lancashire saw Co, but with hindsight their failings at this size should have been obvious to me, I just didn't think it through properly.

The Bimetal blades we used were 1 x 4 skip 220" long, used on an old but very solid Centauro, you will probably remember that Startrite sold them many years ago but rebadged them under their own name. Never had any problem tensioning, but I have always been a fan of not overdoing tension on a bandsaw, I have always found that it prolongs blade life and has very little influence on cutting accuracy provided there is just sufficient. Accuracy is all about using a sharp blade, a fact overlooked by most amateur users, who in my experience who expect a blade to last for years rather than hours!!

We never had a tension gauge, but after using the saw on a daily basis for over 20 years I just new when the tension was right, but there was always plenty left if you wanted to wind it up tighter.

In my opinion many of the current small machines also run too fast for use with abrasive and hard timbers, which knocks the set off so much more quickly.

I have no technical data to back up these opinions, just many years experience, that is why I am interested to see what others think.

Cheers,

Alan

 

[desmoengine]

sorry for delay in follow up guys ,had to search right back to november 2004 to find the invoice.

the Resawking blade i got 25mm wide the thickness of teeth being 0.6mm the band thickness being 0.3mm.
ref tensioning ,i had no problem achieving good a good taughtness for resawing 10" beech boards, on my schepach basato 5 machine.

the supplier :
Cutting Edge Technologies
2 swan lane close
Burford
OX18 4SP

contact :Brian Lemon
01993 824 259
[email protected]

i dont know if he is still trading (must email to find out) but he certainly appeared to be knowledgeable on the subject and was at that time also looking to supply cool block band saw guides.

 

[Scrit]

Having looked into the Resaw King a bit further I'm able to add a couple of extra facts to this. Firstly the Resaw King is a stellite-tipped blade, not tungsten carbide. This translates into something alike 1/3 to 1/2 the lifespan of a TCT blade as stellite is nowhere near as hard. Secondly there have been quite a few negative reports in the USA about the short lifespan of the Resaw King blades

Scrit

 

[ivan]

The Axminster Plus saw with 53cm wheels will tension a 1" M42 blade to around 18,000psi*. Probably could do more but Dragon was a bit generous on the blade length and I run out of screw thread at this point. This tension seems OK to me. They also had a 1" blade from thinner than normal stock - but nothing like Highland's very thin Woodslicer, often reccomended here for veneer cutting.

Fatigue of blade body is often quoted as the problem with heavier blades; the flexing gets progressively worse as the wheel size goes down. Bimetal, and presumably TCT seem to have stiffer (for the same thickness) bodies, but perhaps that is just imagination. If true, could be reason for higher tension requirement to control blade flutter.

I have a feeling that Lennox do an "amateur" TCT range the USA with thinner blade body for smaller wheeled home workshop saws. Presumably this is not yet available here due to small volume demand.

* measured with digital vernier as extension gauge

 

[Scrit]

The Axminster Plus saw with 53cm wheels will tension a 1" M42 blade to around 18,000 psi.

The figures I've heard quoted from people like Uddeholm (Swedish) and Wikus (German) are to aim for a tension of around 15,000 psi for carbon steel. Lenox recommend a minimum of 25,000 psi for the Trimaster III for maximum life and straightness of cut. These blades will cut at lower tensions it's just that the cut won't be as straight and the life will be shorter. Those figures are, incidentally for accurate veneer slicing. If the accuracy is less of an issue "most blades will perform acceptably at half that figure in softer materials like timber but the life may be shorter" (Wikus rep's comments)

Fatigue of blade body is often quoted as the problem with heavier blades; the flexing gets progressively worse as the wheel size goes down.

I'm not sure that the thickness of the blade makes as much difference as the diameter of the wheel

Bimetal, and presumably TCT seem to have stiffer (for the same thickness) bodies, but perhaps that is just imagination. If true, could be reason for higher tension requirement to control blade flutter.

My understanding from discussions with the tech reps is that the backs on bimetallic, stellite and carbide blades are generally a higher grade steel than that in high carbon blades with a higher breaking strain. That combined with the greater thickness (necessary to adequately support stellite and carbide and absorb the extra stress of high speed sawing normally undertaken with this type of blade) makes them more difficult to tension on lighter machines.

I have a feeling that Lenox do an "amateur" TCT range the USA with thinner blade body for smaller wheeled home workshop saws. Presumably this is not yet available here due to small volume demand.

Nope. Lenox don't make an "amateur range". The blade often used in the USA is the Trimaster III 1/2in 3tpi which is available on a 0.025in body (as opposed to the 0.035in body of the 3/4in and larger blades). In tests this blade can be tensioned to over 12,000 psi on a Delta 14in bandsaw fitted with an uprated tensioning spring (such as that sold by Louis Iturra or Iturra Design in Florida), however the Delta (and the Jet/Powermatic copies) are cast-iron frame machines which potentially makes them somewhat more rigid than fabricated all steel jobs. That said I'ce seen the results of that blade used on a small underpowered machine with insufficient tension and they were very creditable

Before I switched over to TCT blades some 6 years ago I'd spent time talking to several woodworkers in the USA who'd started to use TCT blades (an advantage of having lived there for a while). When I returned I found myself being regarded as slightly insane by some of the band saw blade suppliers because I wanted a TCT blade with variable pitch and hook form teeth. My first blades were imported specially for me from the USA. Now I have an account with a trade supplier who holds coil stock of Trimaster TCT ready to make up, although most of his customers are in engineering. Things change. Albeit slowly.

Scrit

 

[ivan]

Thanks Scrit, that sheds a bit more light on the subject!

The foray into bi metal blades was as a result of wanting to try variable pitch. Part of the sucess of the Woodslicer (carbon, thin kerf 3-4 tpi) would seem to be due to a steadier blade, variable pitch reducing vibration. Varible pitch certainly gives a much better cut on my (metal) cut off bandsaw. I feel the bi metal2-3tpi blade gives a better cut in woodthan a standard carbon steel, but the difference isn't huge. The blades seem to have far too much set for cabinet makers! Can't remember exactly, but importing a Woodslicer is around the same cost as UK bimetal. ($50, £28)

The Ax bandsaw "will accept" a 11/4" blade and tension it to 15,000psi, it's a real pig to fit, I shouldn't have bought it. It's not the wheels/guides, but a too small cut out in the mild steel plate below the table. 3/4" slips on and off easily, and the saw can easilyy manage the 25,000 psi on these. (I must not be seduced by big teef.I must not be seduced....)

Was everyone debating this with circular saw blades in 1960's?