Cannels - anybody know why?

[Phil Pascoe]

PS my pet theory as to why Scots refer to southerners as "sassenachs" is that is because these people spoke a Saxon language or "Sachsenisch" - seems like I'm not the only one: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... o-the-war/
Cheers, W2S

Cornish = sawsnek.

 

[Droogs]

I've managed to come up with this: læfelcant.
It fits quite naturally into the language. Try saying it in a phrase e.g. "Can yer chuck us ' læfelcant, lad?" (Where ' = the missing "the", there being no "the" in OE, something which survives in the north to this day).

Sorry Andy but, oh contraire, as they say. OE did indeed have a definate article and it was the word "se" and its derivitives ( sío{m}, séo{f}, þæt {n}, þá{p}) , but this is from the middle to late Old English period just before the changeover to ME where the Thorn was used exclusively. Previous to this OE was a fully declined language, just as modern German is today with a definate article that was gender/numeritive and case sensitive dependant on the participle ending of the noun. We get our "the" from the usage of the Thorn at the start of definate articles that related to plurals and nearly all other non nominative cases and that the Thorn (sort of looks like a p) was indicative of a soft th sound whereas the Eth (a d with a line through the stem) was indicative of a hard th sound used manily for the singular.

As an aside - due to laziness on the part of William Caxton when he brought the printing press over from Europe, rather than add some of the OE specific written letters to his typeset, he substituted ones that he already had. Such as the letter g for the yogh (looks like a cursive script z) and because by the time he came along the Eth had basically disappeared from usage and the Thorn was used exclusively in writting the word "the" and it looking almost identical to an uppercase Y in OE blackletter scipt he just used the letter Y instead and hence we get the crappy misconception of "Ye old chip shop" when what the sign actually says is "The old chip shop"

Mmm, all that has made me wonder why I gave studying all that and travel the world using Teeny Weeny Airways and go blow stuff up instead. :lol:

 

[Andy Kev.]

Droogs,

I'm familiar with the seo etc. words but I'm sure that I read somewhere that we didn't have a word for "the". Was that maybe regional? I took it as a logical explanation for the routine dropping of "the" in Lancashire and Yorkshire. I've got a couple of books on OE and will dive into them at the weekend in a bid to resolve this.

I agree about Caxton being an idle git. We really could do with the two letters for the hard and soft "th" and a letter for the sound represented by "e" in "the" given that all the vowels can default to this when unstressed.

 

[Tasky]

Who'd a' thunk a bunch a' woodworkers'd be such cunning linguists...

 

[Droogs]

I think the main influences for the dropping of The in the north was twofold. Firstly the use of the dipthong in spoken dialects is much stronger as you go north in areas where "english" was spoken (this includes right up to the trossach and Tay valley in Scotland) as this is as far north that the Anglo-Saxons colonised. Further north it was Gaelic and originally Pictish that was spoken. Also why the original meaning of sassenach is really "lowlander". As the peoples of the lowlands in Scotland spoke what is still agrued to be a dialect or language known as Inglis. Personaly I see it as a dialect of OE-Anglo Saxon, all be it a very old one. (but that is another aside and arguement ). The other main factor for me is that north of Watford was basically from shortly after C7th to the C10th under the Danelaw and is therefore very heavily influenced by the Nordic language and dialects, which in general are fairly curt staccato ways of communicating and this along with the nature of northeners to be curcumspect in manner would have lead to an abreviating of the evryday language. These two factors for me probably explain the dropping trend. have to admit could talk about this for hours. Was doing a linguistics degree years ago and was utterly fascinated by the evolution of english, truly the greatest gift to the world by the peoples of this island because of its flexibility and adaptability.

 

[AndyT]

Those two missing letters are alive and well and living in that fascinating but almost treeless country, Iceland.
As Wikipedia puts it:

The Icelandic alphabet is notable for its retention of two old letters which no longer exist in the English alphabet: Þ, þ (þorn, modern English "thorn") and Ð, ð (eð, anglicised as "eth" or "edh"), representing the voiceless and voiced "th" sounds (as in English thin and this), respectively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_language

 

[whiskywill]

Chefs use cannel cutters for making grooves in citrus fruit or vegetables.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Genware-CLCT-C ... B00CITFK8S

 

[novocaine]

Who'd a' thunk a bunch a' woodworkers'd be such cunning linguists...

Close. but put an N where the T should be.

 

[Tasky]

Close. but put an N where the T should be.

"Who'd a' nhunk a bunch a' woodworkers'd be such cunning linguisns"...??!!

Huh??!!

 

[novocaine]

If I have to spell it out I'll be band for a month.
or Batd for a motth not sure which but it sounds uncomfortable.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Fascinating stuff.

Picking up Droogs' point about the Danelaw, it certainly changed how people spoke, and you can still see that in place names (-thwaite, for example, rather than the Anglo-Saxon -ton) and such words as 'fell' for hill and 'beck' for brook. Given that Sheffield has been a source of edge tools for a very long time (Geoffrey Chaucer referred to 'a Sheffield thwithel' - a thwithel being a short-bladed general utility knife - in 'The Canterbury Tales', for example), it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the word 'cannel' was at least influenced by Nordic languages, since Sheffield was most definitely within the area of Danelaw influence.

As for all this substituting of letters, all I can say is that the proponents should be very careful not to become cults themselves.

 

[novocaine]

I've been told I'm a cunning stunt for a long time Chappie.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thee and me both, Novo....

 

[AndyT]

I've been told I'm a cunning stunt for a long time Chappie.

A member of the legendary feminist theatre group, I assume?

 

[Andy Kev.]

One or two might be interested in this:

http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_leaf

Put simply, it's the idea of developing English as it would have looked had not the Norman pestilence come to our shores which did of course lead to the wrecking of the language or should I say tongue (tung even). Fascinating stuff and it completely deponcifies English.

 

[Tasky]

If I have to spell it out I'll be band for a month.
or Batd for a motth not sure which but it sounds uncomfortable.

I know what you meant, you just got it backwards... or didn't get the 'cunning-linguist' jest?

 

[Farmer Giles]

Or Latin if we want to go back even further it would seem.
I had an English teacher when I was about 12 and every week he would make us learn Latin roots. Simple stuff compared to any who have been to a proper school or who actually learned Latin of course. But I'd shake him by the hand for it now much as I thought it was pointless at the time.
Dog Latin or not, it exponentially increased my understanding of my own language and has continued to do so ever since. I owe the man a pint for that

In that case you can probably translate my old boss's sick notes. When he wanted a couple of days off he would put in a sick note with "plumbum pendulitis" as his sickness on it. His boss never twigged that he meant he was swinging the lead

Evidently that saying comes from lazy sailors who were just swinging the depth testing lead around on its rope rather than actually taking depth readings.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've been told I'm a cunning stunt for a long time Chappie.

Cupid Stunt, surely?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkqxagJglaI

 

[Cheshirechappie]

One or two might be interested in this:

http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_leaf

Put simply, it's the idea of developing English as it would have looked had not the Norman pestilence come to our shores which did of course lead to the wrecking of the language or should I say tongue (tung even). Fascinating stuff and it completely deponcifies English.

Ah - proper Anglo-Saxon. Now that's language I understand, though that is admittedly because I've been on the receiving end of it from time to time.

I'm really glad I started this thread, now. It's veered off in directions I wouldn't have anticipated in a hundred years, but I've learned loads! Many thanks to all who have taken the time to contribute.

(PS We still don't really know where the word 'cannel' comes from, but given what we have found out, who cares!)

 

[Bm101]

Or Latin if we want to go back even further it would seem.
I had an English teacher when I was about 12 and every week he would make us learn Latin roots. Simple stuff compared to any who have been to a proper school or who actually learned Latin of course. But I'd shake him by the hand for it now much as I thought it was pointless at the time.
Dog Latin or not, it exponentially increased my understanding of my own language and has continued to do so ever since. I owe the man a pint for that

In that case you can probably translate my old boss's sick notes. When he wanted a couple of days off he would put in a sick note with "plumbum pendulitis" as his sickness on it. His boss never twigged that he meant he was swinging the lead

Evidently that saying comes from lazy sailors who were just swinging the depth testing lead around on its rope rather than actually taking depth readings.

Think you're right on top of it Captain, with you through and through mate. Top man. Copper bottomed suggestion.
Roger the cabin boy!
Like a lot of our island sayings it's derived from a strong nautical history. Except that one about Roger. Probably.

I always thought you're swinging the lead just 'cause you had the easiest job on the ship mind.
Taking the thread a couple of degrees off course but we're sticking to calm waters till all mention of the Normans has died down. :|
Hold fast men.