Buying useful old planes on EBay

[Anonymous]

Tony wrote:

I too was concerned about buying LN when my tuned Stanley with new Hock blade and Clifton chip breaker seemed so good.
Well after 5 seconds with the LN 4.5 I knew that the stanley could never be tuned enough. Chalk and cheese.
The LN is smooth, cuts full width shavings more cleanly (leaving a glowing surface) it 'feels' better in the hand, is better balanced, and it's extra weight makes planing an easier and more enjoyable experience. I made a shooting board yesterday and used the old stanley to plane man made boards - it felt flimsey and inaccurate.

Ditto for my Clifton number 5 - I would not be able to choose between an LN and a Clifton when it comes to performance.

I agree with you that a Stanley Bailey can not be tuned to match an LN in smoothing performance. My Knight coffin smoother will also outperform my Stanleys and serves as my polishing plane.
For the other 95+% of my planing chores, my Stanleys (and similar) suit my needs.

 

[Midnight]

Ike wrote

Please, I'm genuinely intrigued by the discussions about what planes to buy (or what not to buy as the case may be). Perhaps this could form another topic with the emphasis towards educating plane numpties like me.

First point Ike... owning one new Stanley doesn't qualify you as numpty; that's reserved for the likes of me... 3 Stanleys and a Record..

First up, the finish quality of the casting is borderline "fit for purpose" at best; check it out with a straight edge, you'll see what I mean. Secondly, as Alf pointed out, the quality of their blade steel is dubious; ideal stuff to teach you how to sharpen properly as you'll get plenty practice in a hurry.

For me, the worst aspects with the bench planes happened when I tried to close their mouths; moving the iron off the rearmost face of the throat meant that the iron had less support; it totally refused to cut. Even when set fine, it would catch, deflect rearward, digging-in in the process, rip massive chunks out the board before chattering through the rest of the stroke. Back the adjuster off 1/8th of a turn and it wouldn't cut at all. It struck me as pointless having an adjustable frog at all when that happens when you try to use it.
For me, the single worst aspect was when I was physically able to deflect the body of the #7 so far that the blade caught and dug into the bottom of a hollow (I'd only just started trying to straighten the board after planing cross grain with the jack), the tear out in the hollow had me stumped till I sat and figured out exactly what had to have happened. Bearing in mind, I'm no Geoff Capes, I found it utterly ridiculous.

I still use the Stanley #5, and will have to continue to do so until I can afford to relace it. With it tuned and flattened properly, frog set to have the back of the throat support the blade it's still a capable tool especially after my scrub plane's done the initial shaping of the board. But that wide open throat and bendy as **** blade means the days when I trusted it for fine work are long gone... As for a doorstop, try beating a #7 for size.

My story with their block planes was much the same. I bought a Stanley 220 (I think......no model # on the casting). After spending 4 hours tuning it, sharpening, flattening and honing the blade on 8000 grit, it managed to achieve doorstop status on after just the one board. It stayed together just long enough to chatter and bite chunks along the full length of the board edge, the chatter being bad enough to shake loose the quick release cap iron and let the thing literally fall apart in my hands. I'll spare the sob story of the Record 9 1/2 block plane; suffice to say that although it lasted longer, the result was the same. Thesedays it serves as a paperweight in the shop, doubling as a constant reminder NEVER to buy new Record again.

To my mind, any iron plane should conform to 5 main points.

1/ The casting should be stiff enough to resist flexing.
2/ The sole should be flat
3/ The sides should be square
4/ The iron should be both thick enough and hard enough to resist flexing in use
5/ All burrs and sharp edges created during the machining process should be removed prior to assembly / shipping.

These 5 points are, imho MINIMUM requirements to qualify as fit for purpose; there's a far longer list to define a GOOD plane. Having to spend 4-6 hours working on a NEW product bought in good faith from a manufacturer with a good reputation is utterly ridiculous.
I know there are aftermarket blades that will improve the planes, but it's my belief that, when the planes NEED an upgrade like that, it SHOULD be done by the manufacturer; if I attempted to pass off a half finished wiring loom as fit for purpose, I'd be fired. Nuff said...??

Ike, I hope this ramble hasn't put you off; there's a LOT of good manufacturers out there making first rate tools. If I were you, I'd have a good long look at the product ranges of Clifton, Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen; you winna go far wrong with them. Granted, they're more expencive... their difference is... they're worth it.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd certainly recommend a Ray Iles, - doesn't he surface grind them - so you don't have to do loads of fettling when you get them?

Adam

Yes, he does - the 5 1/2 I got off him came with gleaming sole and sides. He generally doesn't touch the japanning, so if the plane he got to recon had japanning missing, it'll still be missing when you buy it. It's worth forking the extra money for one of Ray's replacement irons too - it's not A2, but is cheaper than say a Hock or a Victor after-market iron.

that modern stanley someone mentioned, that's not badged stanley, could be one of the handeyman range (as sold in the likes of homebase)...seriously cheap and rubbish! If you have to buy a modern plane, the records are generally considered better quality than the stanleys.

 

[Anonymous]

<snip>
Ike, there's lots of things really. .... the blades are pretty ghastly, <more snip>
Cheers, Alf

Here's a link with some good info one the steels used in making irons:
http://www.hocktools.com/steelrap.htm

I know there are aftermarket blades that will improve the planes, but it's my belief that, when the planes NEED an upgrade like that, it SHOULD be done by the manufacturer;

Trouble is, the manufacturers are making the blades the way they are to meet what they perceive as a demand - they're putting way too much chrome-vanadium in the alloy to keep the metal nice and stainless, to meet Joe-Public DIYers' demand for tools that can be put in the drawer for years, and not go rusty. Your average #4 owner (not woodworker) probably very rarely uses the plane, and there are more of them than there are of us. Stanley is chasing that market, for the volume. That leaves those of us who know better (or think we do, at least
) to go for the after-market irons from Ron Hock or Clifton or whoever.

I did have a link to a page that goes into the whole economics of it, but can't find it at the moment...I'll try and dig it out.

 

[ike]

Ike, I hope this ramble hasn't put you off;

Tony, Roger, Mike,

Not at all!. I'm thankful for your views on the subject. I must make the effort to lay my hands on the Clifton and LN's somehow. I have a Clifton 3110. To me it works beautifully and my only gripe with it is was that the cast faces were not properly deburred after grinding. Pretty poor for a plane that cost me (then) £115. I hope their bench planes are better finished.

What I want first is a smoother. I don't yet own one. I reckon a 4-1/2 rather than a 4. Poring (drooling?) over my LN catalogue the other evening, one thing I'm still confused about is the relative merits of the standard bench plane and the low angle equivalents. Can you enlighten me a bit more on this?

I'm hoping I can save enough to get at least a smoother and a few nice chisels by the year end.

Ike

 

[Philly]

Hi All,
My single E-bay experience was a beech shoulder plane. Got it for £14, brand new. Looked beautiful, sharpened the blade and off we go. Oh The thing is warped in two planes (no pun intended). Flattened the sole on my jointer, no problem, but it was warped in its length as well. A wooden banana.
So, if you want a sharp wooden banana drop me a line. I'm sure your's will be the "winning" bid.
regards,
A Ripped Off Philly :?

 

[Neil]

Thanks everyone - plenty of advice either way. I think I'll tread carefully and give ebay a try to get a cheap #4 to tide me over until Alf has finished her 'workshop reorganisation' :wink:

NeilCFD

 

[Midnight]

Can you enlighten me a bit more on this?

Ike..

My first instingt was that the best way to cover this would be to do a proper review, not least because doing that here would hijack Neil's thread. I'll ummmmm.... see what I can do.

<hushed> if you ping Alf's knicker elastic hard enough it may spook her into a review of her #164, but dinna say I put you up to it :wink:

 

[ike]

Alf,

Mike said not to say who put me up to it but if I ping your knicker elastic hard enough will you review your #164.

* :twisted: Was that hard enough?

Psst, what's a #164?

Ike :?

 

[Midnight]

* Was that hard enough?

Psst, what's a #164?

Sheesh.. talk about subtle as a brick....

L-N#164 is that flashy lookin tool she's using in her Avtar, a.k.a. low angle smoother.

 

[ike]

Eh? whaa? did I say somethin wrong? :? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

found more details on the choice of steels used in plane irons, and why modern, mass produced irons are not as good these days as they used to be:

Another point - maybe you have heard the story of the ancient chisel rediscovered in a corner of the attic. It still worked, and sharpened up brilliantly, to an edge that lasted for ages. It rapidly became the tool of preference for every job. And what happened? Not a miracle, unless you count the properties of carbon steel, for that was what it was made of: carbon steel is excellent to sharpen and has high hardness. In the 19th century, virtually every cutting tool was made of carbon steel. The name is given to steel unalloyed with any other substance. It is allowed to contain up to 1.7 % carbon. It has some disadvantages - it is brittle and can be denatured if heated. And it is not stainless.

Many of today's manufacturers avoid these disadvantages by using steel alloys. Adding chromium and nickel, for instance, makes the steel stainless, adding tungsten and molybdenum makes it resistant to heat, and titanium toughens it. Foundries will mix the additives to obtain the best combination for the product.

However, these advantages in turn bring disadvantages. The tools are less easy to sharpen, grindstones get clogged, and frequently the cutting edge gets blunt sooner.

As the disadvantages of carbon steel for handheld cutting tools are more than outweighed by its advantages, we declare a preference in the case of chisels for tool steels with a high carbon content.

So, when Stanley proudly boast their chrome-vanadium irons, they're actually telling straight away that the iron is not worth the money!

back to the thread

 

[Alf]

Any chance of keeping my knicker elastic out of this? :roll:

I have the LV low angle jack to review first, and the bullnose, plus a coupla other things, so it's looking unlikely at the moment. But allow me to draw your attention to my review of the Lee Valley Veritas low angle smoother instead... :wink:

There are two main advantages of a low angle plane, particularly for the newbie. Firstly you can close the mouth down very easily, instead of having to learn about frog adjustments. Just loosen the front knob, move it to where you want, tighten. Easy. Secondly, with a couple of additional irons you can give yourself a wide range of attacking angles to choose from, therefore cutting down on the number of planes "needed" :roll: . Thus the standard blade grind might be giving you an end-grain ideal 37 degs, but an additional blade ground at a steeper angle could give you the more common, er, common pitch of 45 degs just like a regular Bailey type. Then a steeper grind still might offer a 50 deg York pitch for difficult woods, or even as high as a scraper plane. LV have cottoned on to this "Swiss Army Knife" approach popular with new plane users, and offer a steeper ground iron as an extra. L-N seem to favour the alternative option of a higher angle frog on a standard bench plane instead. Frequent debate occurs amongst handtool afficianados, putting forward the pros and cons of the low angle bench planes; those against often resorting to the "if it's so darn good, why didn't the old timers buy them then?" argument. The theory being that the rise in low angle bench planes is down more to fashion that their superiority. I dunno. I think it may have rather more to do with the use by L-N and L-V of ductile iron plane bodies, eliminating the stresses and failures that plagued the old Stanleys, and their lower cost as opposed to their befrogged cousins. Certainly I wouldn't be without at least one, and it's as good a place to start as any. Does that help at all? Or merely confuse further? :?

Cheers, Alf

 

[ike]

Much obliged. I'm starting to get a handle on it all now and I'm going to read some more over the weekend.

thanks very much and have a good one.

Ike

 

[Adam]

Much obliged. I'm starting to get a handle on it all now and I'm going to read some more over the weekend.

thanks very much and have a good one.

Ike

Poor pipper, it's like watching a new born baby taking his first few steps. Little does he know he's only a few steps away from the start of the slope.

Ike, back away now! Reading a bit more and you'll quickly have that shiny new Stanley as a doorstop, and you'll be trawling car-boot sales for old planes, investigating surface plates, searching on ebay, reading and re-reading the LN catalogue, and before you know it, the only reason to have electrics in the workshop is to keep the lights shining.....

What have you done Neil? He was happy with it and now.......

Tut tut tut.

Adam

 

[Midnight]

Little does he know he's only a few steps away from the start of the slope.

Och...dinna listen to him Ike; it's really nae so bad down here..once ye get past the friction burns......Ahem

 

[ike]

I might be staring down the slope but don't worry yet, I think the super-duty SHMBO safety rope is still firmly attached.

 

[Neil]

What have you done Neil? He was happy with it and now.......

Hey, I don't think this is my fault at all! May I present Exhibit A:

Poring (drooling?) over my LN catalogue the other evening

Sorry, but if Ike already had an LN catalogue, then all hope was lost already :wink:
NeilCFD

 

[Anonymous]

Alf, those were some fine points about the low angle planes.
These planes are an excellent example of where new planes make more sense than the originals even for a hard core old tools guy.

These planes, especially with an extra blade or two, are very versatile and certainly have merit as a starting point irregardless if you take the old tools or new tools path.

 

[ike]

I got home and with everyones comments ringing in my ears, I gave this Stanley No.5 a closer inspection. My god!, it's all true! Warped to b****ry. I've filed it down and stoned it and got it flatter but still about 3 thou end to end. It had about 10thou concavity crossways. The sides are hopelessly out of square - no chance of fettling them true. It's still far too useful for a doorstop though. It'll serve me well in my travelling toolbox for those journeyman jobs that bring in the pocket money.

So, back to looking at LN's, etc

Slippery slope! PAH! - What slo...parghhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......*!*