Buying sized timber - what to expect?

[Noogoot]

Hi there

I recently ordered twenty metres of 75mmX19mm tulipwood to make some panelled doors for my kitchen. Having the wood sized by the supplier cost quite a bit more than if I had sized it myself, but without the right tools this was impossible for me to do.

My question relates to what my expectations should be in terms of the state of the wood on delivery. I was disappointed to find that a significant proportion of the timber was cupped - probably eight or so metres. I was perhaps naively expecting perfectly straight and square stock. Without the tools, I'll end up either with shoddy doors, or having to get some more which I am reluctant to do. What should I have been expecting? Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards

Rob

 

[Mike.C]

Rob wrote,

I was disappointed to find that a significant proportion of the timber was cupped - probably eight or so metres.

Sorry Rob but why did you settle for the 8 metre's that were cupped? Didn't they have anymore in stock that was not cupped?

I suppose in the end it does not matter because when they finish machining it, and pass it onto you it should not be cupped. Check it out before you pay for it and reject any that is.
If you have already paid for it and waiting for delivery, then do not sign for it or accept it before you have checked. A lot of delivery men will be tutting and grutting while they wait for you to go through it, bugger them it's your hard earned money so they can lump it.

Good luck with you doors

Cheers

Mike

 

[Noogoot]

Thanks Mike

Unfortunately it was delivered when I wasn't at home. I wanted to get some experienced opinion about what is reasonable to accept before I tackle the supplier.

Rob

 

[Mike.C]

Hi Rob,

IMHO it should not be cupped after you asked them to machine it. They charge enough for doing it and so it should be done properly. It would be different if you had asked them just to cut it to size, but this is not the case. Square is square and not cupped.

Get in touch with them and reject the lengths that you are not happy with.

Cheers

Mike

 

[orangetlh]

although in theory it should be straight and flat, timber is a living material and no one can stop the fact that timber will cup after machining. Im sure by the end of the week if its not quarter sawn it will all be cupped to a certain degree. Not sure what the answer is but it isnt really the timber merchants fault. If it was me, and i am in the trades, i would accept it as a wastage and use it elsewhere.

 

[tim]

Out of interest - who was the supplier?

I had some machined tulip (about 100m) from John Boddys for a big job. It arrived badly packed and a lot of the lengths were warped in some way - I sent it back and ordered Beech from British Hardwoods which was marginally more but arrived shrinkwrapped and spot on.

Cheers

Tim

 

[Anonymous]

Buying stuff PAR unseen is an expensve way to do it and always a gamble. Praps you should have specified the moisture content - it would have come off their machines all square but if too wet/dry was bound to move.
If you do it again I'd find a stockist and go along and select the pieces you want. Still expensive and also time consuming.
Hence the usual practice of buying sawn timber and planeing it yourself.

cheers
Jacob

 

[tim]

Still expensive and also time consuming

Not necessarily. Its all down to cost effectiveness - if I can make more money in less time by buying in planed timber then the 'expensiveness' is a red herring.


Cheers

Tim

 

[TonyW]

I was perhaps naively expecting perfectly straight and square stock. ......What should I have been expecting? Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

I think that maybe I "naively expect" perfectly straight and square stock - at least before delivery. Recently wanting some hardwood to practice on visited a local timber merchants. Seeing the signs for "Red Hardwood" looked at it and rejected - it was stacked on end (like B&Q) and was all slightly cupped and very bowed. Asked what exactly the timber was and if they had any straight and square in stock received the reply "its just red hardwood mate and wood will move". Thanking the gentleman profusely for the kind and helpful way he dealt with my query :x I left empty handed not sure which of us was the "plonker".

So as a newcomer to hardwoods what should we expect? One thing is sure, I will not visit that merchant again. In a previous post was given the address of a hopefully better timber merchant.

Cheers
Tony

 

[Mike.C]

Orangetlh,

although in theory it should be straight and flat, timber is a living material and no one can stop the fact that timber will cup after machining. Im sure by the end of the week if its not quarter sawn it will all be cupped to a certain degree. Not sure what the answer is but it isnt really the timber merchants fault. If it was me, and i am in the trades, i would accept it as a wastage and use it elsewhere

8m out of 20m wasteage your obviously a rich man. So you would agree that out of every 100m of timber we should allow for nearly 50% wasteage? Most of us have machines on which we size our own timber and so we expect wastage but even then I would not expect or accept 50%
Yes I agree timber is a living material and it may cup after machining but that does not mean that you have to accept it.

Maybe its been so long since I asked the timber merchant to machine the wood for me and things have changed. Or we just accept a lot more crap then we used to, but I would rather hang up my chisels then accept every 8m out of 20m PAR as wasteage.

Rob I think Mr Grimsdale is right next time go to the timber yard and pick your own, that way you can chec it as it is being machined.
It's a pity that you do not live near me because I would do it for you.

Cheers

Mike

 

[paulm]

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear about your problem.

It's difficult really to do much about it unless you can pick it yourself, best hope is to reject it if not too late on the basis that the % wastage is excessive, and hope that the replacement batch is better.

Most people end up with a planer/thicknesser themselves because of problems like this and find it more satisfactory to convert their own from rough, but obviously not worth it if you don't think you'll make use of it.

You're welcome to run it through my thicknesser/planer to straighten it out if you want, but it'll obviously reduce the eventual size so you would then probably need to do the same to all the good stuff too, and depending on the degree of cupping it could well end up too thin to use for what you want !

But feel free to pm me if you want to give it a go, always good to have an excuse to play in the workshop !

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Mike.C]

Paul,

You're welcome to run it through my thicknesser/planer to straighten it out if you want, but it'll obviously reduce the eventual size so you would then probably need to do the same to all the good stuff too, and depending on the degree of cupping it could well end up too thin to use for what you want !

But feel free to pm me if you want to give it a go, always good to have an excuse to play in the workshop !

Nice one Paul. There you go Rob it may be sorted out after all.

Cheers

Mike

 

[orangetlh]

50% waste on most sawn timbers is acceptable as far as im concerned. Poplar is generally 30% and the boards tend to be good quality and little sap. As for PSE its all down to your supplier. Thinking about it no i probably wouldnt use it as a wastage i would just use it on the job and get on with it to be honest. Ive never had a 70mm peice of timber cup so much as you cant use it. if you dont accpet it then thats perfectly upto you, personaly i find that thats timber and it wouldnt even be an issue with me.

 

[Scrit]

Hi Rob

Sorry to hear abouit your problems. Was your timber 1 S/E, waney edge or 2 S/E, though? And did you pick out the boards, or did they?

8m out of 20m wasteage your obviously a rich man. So you would agree that out of every 100m of timber we should allow for nearly 50% wasteage?

Well, that's what I'm told the wastage from waney edge to PAR can be as high as (and I use 45% in my calcs on W/E steamed beech), although using 1 S/E or 2 S/E I'd obviously expect proportionately less.

50% waste on most sawn timbers is acceptable as far as I'm concerned. Poplar is generally 30% and the boards tend to be good quality and little sap.

So it would appear that I'm not alone in feeling that waste factors accepted by the trade appear to be scandalous to those outside it. Interesting.

There is perhaps also a point about being there to accept delivery. Even when you are in this business some merchants will try to palm off any old rubbish on you and trying to get them to take stuff back after delivery (and they've had the money) can be a nightmare. We once had twenty sheets of oak-veneered MDF "in stock" for three months before we got any action.

Scrit

 

[DomValente]

Hi Rob,

Don't accept it, make them come and collect it and either replace it with the quality you paid for or give you your money back. Why the hell should you pay them for rubbish.
Some weeks ago Watford timber tried to do the same to me with some walnut (rough sawn) I wasn't there to take it in and I'm not a good customer of theirs but it went back twice before I got my money back.

Dom

 

[woodbutcher]

hi rob



you would not bye a car with two wheels missing so why bye timber that is not fitt for purpose send it back.

woodbutcher

 

[tim]

I don't accept any wastage when it comes to buying machined timber except in relation to lengths being slightly out of kilter with my cutting lists.

I always specify MC and make it clear to the supplier what I am using it for - which helps if you need to make a vehement case.

Cheers

Tim

 

[Anonymous]

50% waste on most sawn timbers is acceptable as far as im concerned. Poplar is generally 30% and the boards tend to be good quality and little sap. As for PSE its all down to your supplier. Thinking about it no i probably wouldnt use it as a wastage i would just use it on the job and get on with it to be honest. Ive never had a 70mm peice of timber cup so much as you cant use it. if you dont accpet it then thats perfectly upto you, personaly i find that thats timber and it wouldnt even be an issue with me.

What form does your 50% waste take? Is it really un-useable?
I'm a bit mystified - I reckon I waste about 5%, if that. Thats when it's down to less than 12" long and has been in the offcuts box for more than a year or so - or short enough to go in the woodburner without sawing.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Mike.C]

orangetlh,

50% waste on most sawn timbers is acceptable as far as im concerned

We are not talking about 50% wastage on sawn timbers, you told Rob to treat his 8m out of 20m finished PAR as wastage. As I have said IMHO 8m wastage is unacceptable.

By the way again IMHO so is 50% on sawn. When quoting for a job some Pro's such as Scrit may allow for 50% but that is their livelihood and they are getting paid by the customer, but I am the end user and have to pay for the stuff myself so if a timber merchant tried to mug me off with that sort of wastage I would take my bossiness elsewhere.

Cheers

Mike

 

[orangetlh]

Jacob, the 50% includes splits on ends, shakes, knots, sap, just general rubbish and also the wastage incurred by machining sawn timber to size. If you take one board 10" wide and you want two 3" boards, youve lost nearly 30% already not taking into account saw cuts and machining. Agreed if you buy timber the size you need it in the first place then this will be cut but if your in the trade you cant specify exact lengths and widths with sawn hardwoods.

Mike i didnt tell him to accept it i said i would. As for the argument about wastages I am in the trades, i regularly order timber and i always put at least 30% wastage on anything i order. If in your opinion thats not acceptable then fine but in my opinion as ive stated 50% wastage is perfectly acceptable, maby not for you but thats not the issue.