Built in wardrobes tutorials!

[No skills]

I know you say you have no workshop but are you making the stuff at home or at the customers houses?

I cant imagine anybody spraying at a customers house (apart from decorators in an empty place), will be interested to see if anybody does. This is an interesting thread.

 

[roman]

I know you say you have no workshop but are you making the stuff at home or at the customers houses?

I cant imagine anybody spraying at a customers house (apart from decorators in an empty place), will be interested to see if anybody does. This is an interesting thread.

Occasionally I prepare things at home but this is seldom possible, but otherwise its done in customers houses. Its usually accompanied by redcoration of the room, but not always. I'm like to find an accurate and dependable timber yard in East and North London to cut material, to width at leas,t in order totake some of the strain and make the work more manageable.

 

[mailee]

I do think you are over engineering the robes Charlie. I use 18mm boards for the carcasses and 6mm for the back panels which are rebated and glued/pinned in. I do build them in my workshop along with spraying them there and then assemble the units at the customers home using screws and biscuits and glue. For scribing the sides in I use a compass and then cut them with the jig saw set at an angle. I wouldn't even contemplate spraying them at the customers home due to the over spray/fumes. For the shelves I use biscuits and screws and if it is on a panel that will show screws I use the knock down fittings. I also fit a thin 6mm panel over the base frame scribed in to the skirting at each side which is glued on with Gripfill. These of course are my methods and ones that work for me others may be able to give you better methods to use for your circumstances. HTH. :wink: Oh and I will just add that those sloping ceilings are a right pain in the ar*e! :lol:

 

[petermillard]

I have just worked out the cost of materials, based on the design below, and was surprised how much it came to! This design uses 6 sheets of 19mm & 4 sheets of 6mm veneered MDF and 6 cu ft (sawn allowing for wastage).

Is there another way of achieving the same storage space but reducing the amount of materials used please?

Sorry, late on the replies. If it were me, I'd be inclined to make the left and right carcasses doubles, rather than two singles, if the internal layout isn't compromised by doing this. Probably the same with the top boxes as well. But as Mailee says in response above, this kind of thing isn't cheap, even in plain MDF.

Pete

 

[petermillard]

Hi Pete,
That’s great, many thanks. I’d have scratched my head all week and still not thought of it. I can see that with the widest gap between the wall and 6mm section of infill needs to be less than the thickness of the carcass material.

Just to be clear, assuming that the base of the 'L' shape infill is the same as the carcass thickness, then the infill needs to be not less than 2X the carcass thickness. And again, a big thank you to Chippy1970 for posting this technique in his original thread, and JasonB, who's idea it was originally, I think.

I’ve only made a seven or eight shelving alcove units, none with doors yet, but I think the L shapes might still be useful if done with great care so as not to show the join with the carcass. In any case the idea of hooking the infill around the carcass to draw the scribe line as my method of using pins or double sided tape can lead to inaccuracies, esp when using mdf which is prone to bending.

The method described above is by far the easiest, simplest & most accurate method for scribing infills I've ever used - how do you scribe your infills now, just out of interest?

I’d appreciate any comments on my methods as I need to quicken my work to make it more economical...

As Mailee says, I think you're over-engineering everything, personally - 25mm carcass with a 12mm back must weigh a ton! Ditto with housings for shelves - I use Dominos for alignment, and carcass screws for strength; judicious use of end-panels can hide fixings if there's no alternative. An electric stapler is good for fixing the backs to the carcasses btw - less chance of a staple pulling through than a pin.

I'd encourage you to try and find a small workspace, even if it's just for pre-assembly. Ditto for a decent local timber yard that will do accurate board-cutting - I've found this to make a huge difference to my workflow, as described in the thread I linked to earlier. I'd suggest that these things will be of far, far more use to you than any paint sprayer - FWIW I have a small Earlex HVLP sprayer, and there's no way I'd use this in a customer's house!

On occasions I have fitted a piece of material to cover the plinth and scribed to the skirtings to either side. This worked well but takes a lot ofwork and there must be a better way!

Cut the skirting flush with e.g. a Multimaster and run the cover material behind the skirt - no scribing required

HTH, Pete

 

[roman]

Hi Pete,

At present I cut a thin strip of infill (not 25mm!) of sufficient width so that there will be enough material to cut into along its length. I place it over the face edge of the carcass, and using my small combi square I make sure it overhangs the carcass uniformly. To secure it while striking the scribe line I pin it to the carcass or use double sided tape, a surprisingly frustrating and error prone method, hence my delight at your L shaped piece which automatically ensures uniformity along the entire length. On some occasions I have attached a strip to the outside of the carcass, set back by the thickness of the infill, in order to help secure it in position. I cut the piece with a jigsaw and tidy up with a block plane.

You are right about it weighing a ton! I use housings for strength and positive location at the assembly and moving stage, I guess if I used thinner gear this would be less necessary. I suppose I’ve created the need for housings by using the 25mm and 12 mm.

I’ve spent three years wondering about a domino. I’ve used one before and they are wonderful. At some point there will be a good offer and I’ll crack, until then I’ll wait in hope of a cheap lidl copy! BTW I assume you use a jig with the domino whereby you fit a piece of material with dominos sticking out into your domino mortices to provide registration at a set distance for the next ones? I’ve considered this for biscuits but have yet to do it.

The electric stapler sounds good if it works well, I always assumed they were a bit puny but I’d try one if you think it’s worth it.

As far as a workspace is concerned I don’t think I could justify it yet. Work is too fitful and I’m trying to avoid ongoing costs that syphon money away. If the workload ever demanded it, that would be my dream.

I own a multimaster but my clients so far have been reluctant to allow me to chop away quite ornate original skirtings, maybe they don’t view my work with a view to permanence!

As far as spraying is concerned I’d love to give it a go in the right circumstances. I’ve painted a lot in my time and consider myself to be quite good, but increasingly I am encountering furniture, doors and even skirtings that must have been sprayed and the finish is fantastic, I can’t get anywhere near it with brushes and rollers. I can see that the time saved in the painting is probably lost in extensive masking and cleaning so there is a trade off. I take your point that a tidy living room might not be the place to start.

Just a thougt on materials. As I mentioned earler I use timber lippings and MDF, however on one job acustomer had two sheets of old blockboard that had been painted and asked if I could reuse them. I agreed and found there was enough for all the shelves. The obvious drawback is the sarface finish which is just like plywood and benefits from grain filling prior to painting. However, for heavy loads it’s a fantastic material. Whereas the addition of a lip to the front of a shelf provides rigidity in the form of a beam, blockboard is beams all the way and seems much lighter than MDF. Is there a reason it’s not used more?

My built ins so far have been blocky things unadorned by mouldings etc but I’ve ripped out a few recently that had fluted and reeded embellishments attached that were made of a sort of brittle acrylic and were paintd. Is this common? I’ve yet to find a good source of this kind of thing and maybe it should be the next step along with cornicing.

regards

Roman

 

[petermillard]

Nothing wrong with housing joints, I just think they're a bit OTT in a wardrobe that'll only ever hold e.g. folded clothes. I don't use any kind of spacimg jig with my Domino, just use pencil marks referenced off the back edge of the carcass. I have the original domino with pins (not the later 'paddles') and in theory, you can use the pins to space out a run of dominos - in practise though, they're much too close together done this way, so I stick with the low-tech method.

I'd agree that electric staplers are a bit puny, but all it's doing is holding the back on until the adhesive sets, so I haven't found it to be a big deal, personally. They're cheap enough to give it a try, anyway - mine's just a basic £30-ish Rapesco nailer/stapler, though I wouldn't recommend it as a pin-gun, just a stapler!

It's a fair point about not chopping into original skirtings and moulding - your only option here is to scribe an infill. As I mentioned further up the thread, I use a basic 'profiler' that I bought from a tile shop ages ago, then coping saw, jigsaw, whatever. Actually, I've found I can get pretty close in thin material with a couple of chisels and some coarse abrasive - fast too.

Spray painting gives a fantastic finish, for sure, but you need quite a lot of space to do it properly, something I don't have. I get good results using a foam roller, then blending the paint out with a soft brush. I also try and emphasise the 'hand made, hand painted' appeal of the stuff I make

I've only come across acrylic mouldings for skirtings and coving - Decorating Direct do quite a wide range - gives a nice finish, but nasty stuff to cut and work with. Haven't seen blockboard for donkeys years - to be fair, I haven't looked, either - but I'm pretty sure the internal 'blocks' or 'beams' were just staves i.e. not continuous throughout the length of the board. As always though, happy to be shown how wrong I am

Cheers, Pete

 

[No skills]

Spraying isnt just an issue of masking up the room and clean up after, you have to consider the H&S side of things as well - fumes etc. I do some large scale spraying quite often and the mess and potential hazzards can be a right pain.

Is there no way you can get a single garage or something to work in? I understand that London must be a very expensive place to let anything, do you have any trade friends that you can sometimes borrow some space from?

 

[roman]

Good point about blockboard , although the gear I used seemed to be made of quite long pieces (I only used if for shelves) even with staves the joints would be staggered and it was much stiffer than MDF.

On the domino spacings I dont think I was very clear, I had in mind the spacing of mortices to determine the position of shelves in a carcass. ie drill mortices for the first, place piece of material, say 25cm long with three dominos at one end and some scrap attached at the other end at 90 degrees to reference the machine for the next mortices.

On spraying, its not the be all and end all that I do it, I'd just like to try out the process. I only had in mind HVLP systems for use with water based paints which minimize the hazards. I get the point about not going into living rooms, all guns blazing, its obviously better suited to empty spaces, however I know its used more and more in this country and has been commonplace in the states for years now.

Workspaces are cheap compared to rents but still cost loads. looking ahead I have a few contacts who might be able to provide something in time if their plans fall into place, but I'm not holding my breath.

Pete, I use the trick of making a virtue of brushwork too. I even believed it myself for a long time. But there came a point when I looked at my lovingly prepared surfaces, painted with purdys, paint conditioner mixed in with farrow and ball sludge, and knew I was nowhere near what can be done.

regards

Roman

 

[chippy1970]

The main reason for using the L shaped infills for me was so I could get them flush with the inset doors and still use ordinary concealed lay on hinges. If you have 22mm thick doors and you normally have a couple of mm between them and the carcass edge. So the infills need to be 24mm thick but if you use the L method they are fully adjustable for any thickness door.

 

[Charlie Woody]

The main reason for using the L shaped infills for me was so I could get them flush with the inset doors and still use ordinary concealed lay on hinges. If you have 22mm thick doors and you normally have a couple of mm between them and the carcass edge. So the infills need to be 24mm thick but if you use the L method they are fully adjustable for any thickness door.

So when you fit the infill it is flush with the door not the carcass ..... I thought it would be the other way around when I was reading this thread

Do most people use 22mm MDF (or MR MDF) for the doors as I am finding it difficult to find a supplier who has anything other than 18mm MR MDF? Things are different when you live in a rural area :!:

 

[No skills]

I would imagine this is just down to how you want it to look, if you have lay on doors (like a standard kitchen cab) and you want the doors to look layon then you can set the infill flush with the cabinet, if you want the lot flush then bring them forward flush with the doors face.

 

[petermillard]

@ Charlie As No Skills says, it's down to how you want it to look - and obviously, if the wardrobes are in an alcove, then unless the alcoves are unusually deep (or the wardrobes unusually shallow, lol) then the infill will always be set back from the door, at least on one side. If the wardrobes are the full width of a room, then you have the option make them flush with the doors or the carcass. Re. 22mm for doors - yes, you can use 18mm, but over a certain height they're more prone to bowing, which is less of an issue with 22mm.

@ Roman re Domino jig; sorry, I misunderstood - no I don't have a jig for spaces between the shelves. The height varies with every job, so I simply measure and mark the centres, then cut the left and right sides together on an MFT and referenced against the back of the guide - the Domino has marks on the body for you to align the doms dead centre. Alternatively, I'll just use an off-cut of MDF cut to the correct size, though tbh most shelves I've built recently have been adjustable - either rows of holes, or inset bookcase strips.

Cheers, Pete

 

[Charlie Woody]

Guys when sizing overlay doors I guess that you need to make them slightly smaller than the carcase; question is how much smaller? I will be using Blum 71B355 hinges.

I did some inset doors using Blum hinges last year and I phoned Blum who recommended 2mm clearance on each side, top & bottom. The door edges were rounded over and the gaps look huge and to say the least I was not impressed!!

 

[RogerBoyle]

If I make overlay doors for say a Kitchen unit 600 wide and 720 deep I would make the doors 596 wide and 718 deep
Some will make the doors 598 by 716 etc etc
What you do for one door you need to do for all otherwise it will not look right

Roger

 

[petermillard]

Same here - a couple of mil all round is pretty standard, I think.

 

[Charlie Woody]

Same here - a couple of mil all round is pretty standard, I think.

Thanks guys ..... that mostly answers my concerns.

I can see how this works ok for overlay doors (which is what I will be using on the current project) as the carcass edges will prevent you seeing through into the wardrobe, but if you do the same with inset doors then you can see into the wardrobes.

So do people use the same 2mm on each side plus 1mm top & bottom when using inset doors or only on overlay doors?

 

[RogerBoyle]

When I shoot inset doors I make them the same size as the opening. I then run them them through the Planner taking 1mm off two of the edges ,( top and one side or bottom and one side ) Occasionally you will get a door that will also need an additional little tickle with a plane I just give it a single pass with my block plane.
This way the door is made for the specific opening rather than having uneven gaps everywhere.

Roger

 

[Charlie Woody]

Well guys I have finally finished these wardrobes and would like to thank each and everyone of you for all the help and assistance that you have given me with this project.

The carcases are 18mm MR MDF, rails & stiles 22 mm MR MDF with 6mm MR MDF panels.

I took a photo of the room before I started on it and one of the installed wardrobes awaiting painting - handles will be fitted once painted. No photo of the inside as its just a hanging rail and shelves.

 

[petermillard]

Very tidy Charlie, well done. How did you arrange the right-hand pair of doors in the end - with a doubled-up divider in the carcass, or as a bi-fold?