TobyB":3elg05rs said:
You could also start by the websites; http://www.the-roundwood-timber-framing-co.ltd.uk/ and http://www.ben-law.co.uk/
Building your own Timber-Frame House?
- Thread starter ByronBlack
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You could also start by the websites; http://www.the-roundwood-timber-framing-co.ltd.uk/ and http://www.ben-law.co.uk/
I didn't know small houses were a movement, but actually i'd love to live in one. So easy to heat and keep clean. Nice big workshop next door. Who needs bragging rights and a £500,000 mortgage?
A lot probably depends on the design and degree of pre-fabrication. Strictly speaking 'timber frame' means a studded timber inner leaf inner leaf, and outer block/brick wall as usual. As such it requires all the trade skills to finish.
So far as i can see the saving is that the dimensions and layout are set in the factory (but only in terms of a basic frame), and it gets the roof on very quickly so that pretty much all the trades can work simultaneously and independently of the weather.
On the other hand some of the up market pre-built stuff coming out of Germany and Austria already has the wiring, glazing, piping, insulation and so on installed in each major panel - it's much more of a Lego set job.
These seem quite upmarket and expensive (lots of large scale glazing etc), but a micro house pre-built like this using not so expensive materials could maybe be a very attractive mix of cost, convenience and function???
A lot probably depends on the design and degree of pre-fabrication. Strictly speaking 'timber frame' means a studded timber inner leaf inner leaf, and outer block/brick wall as usual. As such it requires all the trade skills to finish.
So far as i can see the saving is that the dimensions and layout are set in the factory (but only in terms of a basic frame), and it gets the roof on very quickly so that pretty much all the trades can work simultaneously and independently of the weather.
On the other hand some of the up market pre-built stuff coming out of Germany and Austria already has the wiring, glazing, piping, insulation and so on installed in each major panel - it's much more of a Lego set job.
These seem quite upmarket and expensive (lots of large scale glazing etc), but a micro house pre-built like this using not so expensive materials could maybe be a very attractive mix of cost, convenience and function???
Timber framed is as you state Ian, but that does not of course preclude a timber exterior, just so long as the required insulation figures are achieved.
My house is all timber, the only cement/concrete is the foundation.
Roy.
My house is all timber, the only cement/concrete is the foundation.
Roy.
wizer
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I wouldn't waste any time on researching the house until you're sure you're going to be able to find land. About 6 years ago before I got into woodworking, my wife and I looked into building a standard house. We wanted to remain in Kent. We failed to find a plot of land anywhere in the south east cheaper than the cost of a house. In the end we gave up. I don't know about the rest of the country, or further afield, but that's got to be your number one priority.
wobblycogs
Established Member
I take a look at land prices every qurater or so and they are just plain nuts. When we were talking about trying to build a place we were willing to move anywhere in the country as long as it was within an hours drive of somewhere big enough to find a job but there just isn't any land available at a reasonable price. Bits do turn up but their is always something wrong with them e.g. they are on the side of a cliff or vehicular access has been denied etc etc. You can pick up garden plots but generally they are awkward and you will forever feel like you are living in someones back garden (our current house has had places built in what was it's backgarden and it feels a bit weird).
People do find plots but it takes a lot of effort over a very long time and you have to be ready to put down the cash in an instant. Alternatively look up north to the wilds of Scotland. Lands a lot cheaper but, of course, you are in the middle of no where.
People do find plots but it takes a lot of effort over a very long time and you have to be ready to put down the cash in an instant. Alternatively look up north to the wilds of Scotland. Lands a lot cheaper but, of course, you are in the middle of no where.
dannykaye
Established Member
chipchaser
Established Member
Hi Roger,
I was writing about self building and not necessarily self designing. However, I understand and agree with your concern with respect to the increasing burden of regulation. Please excuse me for having a small rant here.
As you know, in the past it was easy to follow the regs and build using guidance set out in them. There were deemed to satisfy solutions to many requirements and, for example, tables showing acceptable timber joist, rafter etc sizes in the regs. Now you have to go to TRADA for structural timber size information or make calculations. The point of the various revisions to the regs was initially to allow alternative means of satisfying the requirements rather than being prescriptive. Later changes incorporate measures to meet the government’s commitment to improve energy usage in buildings.
Unfortunately the way they have implemented this, IMHO, makes it harder for everybody amateur and professional alike, particularly in Part L. Many architects now use professional energy advisors to make the calculations required to satisfy the Conservation of Fuel and Power regs. I think it's wrong that it seems so complex and believe a simple set of rules for DIY folks should run in parallel so that you could either do all the calcs or comply with a set of deemed to satisfy rules. End of rant!
I am in the construction industry so (to some degree) keep up to date with the regs. Getting planning permission and building regs approval is the first part of the job and should be completed before you start on site. By the time you start building you should be in possession of a set of drawings, specifications, supporting calculations where required and building regs approval for that design. One of the things that makes me mad about Grand Designs and the like is that so often they start on site before they have all the permissions in place. This leads to problems which entertain the viewer but reinforces a view that the building industry is generally incompetent. Sorry, slipped another mini rant in there.
If the self builder isn't up to or interested in tackling the regulation side then he/she should do what most people do and hire a professional to progress that set of tasks. Having tackled that hurdle I maintain that it is quite possible to build in your spare time. I completed the house I live in now before the major revisions to building regs were enacted but the actual building process has only changed in detail. Essentially more things have to be either done and certified by approved installers or checked by the building inspector. FENSA approved for doors and windows, Part P certified competent for electrics and so on. An aside, did you know that in Coventry you can do a Part P course and (if you pass the exam) be a competent person in 5 days for £850.
One alternative to employing a designer to cover the Building Regs is to purchase a timber frame erected and weatherproofed by the supplier. That way you could have them handle all the bits that relate to onerous regs and do the fitting out yourself. You don’t need to take my word for the viability of selfbuilding, a couple of weeks ago I went to the Homebuilding exhibition at the NEC packed full of potential selfbuilders and firms servicing their needs.
Finding a site is a problem but may be easier for BB if he is looking beyond UK. Apologies for the length of this post.
Graham
I was writing about self building and not necessarily self designing. However, I understand and agree with your concern with respect to the increasing burden of regulation. Please excuse me for having a small rant here.
As you know, in the past it was easy to follow the regs and build using guidance set out in them. There were deemed to satisfy solutions to many requirements and, for example, tables showing acceptable timber joist, rafter etc sizes in the regs. Now you have to go to TRADA for structural timber size information or make calculations. The point of the various revisions to the regs was initially to allow alternative means of satisfying the requirements rather than being prescriptive. Later changes incorporate measures to meet the government’s commitment to improve energy usage in buildings.
Unfortunately the way they have implemented this, IMHO, makes it harder for everybody amateur and professional alike, particularly in Part L. Many architects now use professional energy advisors to make the calculations required to satisfy the Conservation of Fuel and Power regs. I think it's wrong that it seems so complex and believe a simple set of rules for DIY folks should run in parallel so that you could either do all the calcs or comply with a set of deemed to satisfy rules. End of rant!
I am in the construction industry so (to some degree) keep up to date with the regs. Getting planning permission and building regs approval is the first part of the job and should be completed before you start on site. By the time you start building you should be in possession of a set of drawings, specifications, supporting calculations where required and building regs approval for that design. One of the things that makes me mad about Grand Designs and the like is that so often they start on site before they have all the permissions in place. This leads to problems which entertain the viewer but reinforces a view that the building industry is generally incompetent. Sorry, slipped another mini rant in there.
If the self builder isn't up to or interested in tackling the regulation side then he/she should do what most people do and hire a professional to progress that set of tasks. Having tackled that hurdle I maintain that it is quite possible to build in your spare time. I completed the house I live in now before the major revisions to building regs were enacted but the actual building process has only changed in detail. Essentially more things have to be either done and certified by approved installers or checked by the building inspector. FENSA approved for doors and windows, Part P certified competent for electrics and so on. An aside, did you know that in Coventry you can do a Part P course and (if you pass the exam) be a competent person in 5 days for £850.
One alternative to employing a designer to cover the Building Regs is to purchase a timber frame erected and weatherproofed by the supplier. That way you could have them handle all the bits that relate to onerous regs and do the fitting out yourself. You don’t need to take my word for the viability of selfbuilding, a couple of weeks ago I went to the Homebuilding exhibition at the NEC packed full of potential selfbuilders and firms servicing their needs.
Finding a site is a problem but may be easier for BB if he is looking beyond UK. Apologies for the length of this post.
Graham
jorgoz
Established Member
Thanks for starting this thread, very interesting.
Maybe a bit off topic. When will living in your own (small (selfbuild)) home become a human right and not a privilege as it seems to have become these days ? The earth should belong to everyone and not only those fortunate enough. As a single it's very very difficult these days to get started.
I personally think the stick build or framing build house is the easiest, most economic and quickest and easily adjustable. Also possible to use only wood here. Even a concrete foundation could be omitted for piers (be them concrete or wood), which means a very small impact on your environment (drainage).
wobblycogs":xxu0koun said:
Maybe a bit off topic. When will living in your own (small (selfbuild)) home become a human right and not a privilege as it seems to have become these days ? The earth should belong to everyone and not only those fortunate enough. As a single it's very very difficult these days to get started.
I personally think the stick build or framing build house is the easiest, most economic and quickest and easily adjustable. Also possible to use only wood here. Even a concrete foundation could be omitted for piers (be them concrete or wood), which means a very small impact on your environment (drainage).
Dibs-h
Established Member
chipchaser":2be4ecvr said:
Professional Energy Advisers - now that's rather funny. People generally who wouldn't know the difference between Live & Neutral in a 3 pin plug, paying thru the nose for a "course" that leads to them being a Professional something alright.
Sorry Graham - not having a go at you, just annoyed at how badly DuffGuv have got it wrong. Take Part P - if the daft **** MP who drove it had bothered to check for a Live cable before putting up the shelf......
As for the calcs - they aren't particularly hard, I think it's just another case of fleecing the client - i.e. sub it out for peanuts but charge the rate you normally work for.
As an aside - someone had suggested that reversing the construction method - i.e. blockwork on the inside and timber frame (with insulation) on the outside was better. His own house was built that way and cost bugger all to run.
Dibs
Interesting view there jorgoz. You mentioned singles, before WW2 married women were not allowed to work, there's was to stay at home and look after the bread winner.
Some of the best houses in suburbia today are those built just prior to WW2, when the purchaser would have been a skilled man, paying the mortgage and raising a family.
Today it takes two!
Granted today one gets more bangs for your bucks, but timber houses are not that pricey, the land is!
Roy.
Some of the best houses in suburbia today are those built just prior to WW2, when the purchaser would have been a skilled man, paying the mortgage and raising a family.
Today it takes two!
Granted today one gets more bangs for your bucks, but timber houses are not that pricey, the land is!
Roy.
jeffinfrance
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move to france!!!!!!!!!
you can get plots our way (south west, nice hot summers and plenty of work for a decent joiner) from 25 000 euros planning approved. you could buy a ruin with 5 hectares for as little 100 000
raw materials are MUCH cheaper here too. green oak for framing as little as 400 euros a cube.
a poular build here at the moment is oak framed/straw bale infill with clay render. with pad foundations you can do yourself, a bit (lot) of help to throw up the frame and a lot of hard work, you could have a house habitable by the winter.........then another five years to finish it off weekends!
a good book i reccomend: the whole house book by harris and borer, from the guys at CAT in wales
good luck and all the best,
jeff
you can get plots our way (south west, nice hot summers and plenty of work for a decent joiner) from 25 000 euros planning approved. you could buy a ruin with 5 hectares for as little 100 000
raw materials are MUCH cheaper here too. green oak for framing as little as 400 euros a cube.
a poular build here at the moment is oak framed/straw bale infill with clay render. with pad foundations you can do yourself, a bit (lot) of help to throw up the frame and a lot of hard work, you could have a house habitable by the winter.........then another five years to finish it off weekends!
a good book i reccomend: the whole house book by harris and borer, from the guys at CAT in wales
good luck and all the best,
jeff
chipchaser
Established Member
Dibs,
totally agree with your comments about Part P and the principle of doing your own SAP calcs for Part L. If anyone else is interested, the rules for SAP are set out in a document which you can download from the net, at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/pdf/SAP2005_9-83.pdf
As you say it would be possible to work through the process using a calculator at the kitchen table and submit them as written worksheets.
I have never needed to do that but believe that you are required to use the SAP software licenced by BRE and the Notice of CO2 Emission Rate (Target and As Built) needs to be produced by a person registered by FAERO or BRE. See Cl.26 CO2 Emission Rate Calculations P17 of Part L1A. That's why many building designers use a specialist. They are not normally the same as those people who do HIPS certificates, don't get me going on that one :roll:
I would be interested to know if any Building Control Depts accept manual calcs.
Graham
totally agree with your comments about Part P and the principle of doing your own SAP calcs for Part L. If anyone else is interested, the rules for SAP are set out in a document which you can download from the net, at
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/pdf/SAP2005_9-83.pdf
As you say it would be possible to work through the process using a calculator at the kitchen table and submit them as written worksheets.
I have never needed to do that but believe that you are required to use the SAP software licenced by BRE and the Notice of CO2 Emission Rate (Target and As Built) needs to be produced by a person registered by FAERO or BRE. See Cl.26 CO2 Emission Rate Calculations P17 of Part L1A. That's why many building designers use a specialist. They are not normally the same as those people who do HIPS certificates, don't get me going on that one :roll:
I would be interested to know if any Building Control Depts accept manual calcs.
Graham
Dibs-h
Established Member
chipchaser":1hbbwap4 said:
Mine would - already been discussed.
I guess that if you stand back and look at what's happened over the past 75 years we've seen houses relatively speaking get much more expensive. I'm not precisely sure why - but have a fair idea.
Certainly a skilled man or a manager back then was relative to the general population much better off. It was the same in the US - up to the 70s a blue collar guy with a fairly ordinary factory job could expect to buy a house and bring up and educate a family off his wages too.
It's perhaps a lot to do with unskilled labour becoming so expensive, with property becoming so much a speculative commodity (you've got a bubble once houses cost more than the average punter can afford i.e. that you have to rely on selling an earlier property that has appreciated to get there) and probably also with what's probably a general decline in the Western economies.
Don't forget either just how much of our national wealth goes into keeping going the bloated and predatory bureaucracy the state has become. Also how many of the professional groups have managed to force a scenario where you have to use them, as where as a result they keep on ratcheting up their costs.
Wealth seems (perhaps much to do with what's happened to property and hence banking - at the expense of the middle classes) to have become highly concentrated in certain narrow sections of society too.
On timber frame houses. Not sure if it's typical Roger, but that's just the sort that has become fairly standard over here. I guess all wood construction has a whole body of expertise associated with it too, but you could easily read it up and i see where you are coming from on DIY house building.
Here's a sobering thought that brings both of these strands of the topic together. Take your average mortgage amount, multiply it by about 5 to get the amount you will actually pay back over its 20 or 25 year life.
Now ask yourself if you strip away all of the layers of cost that don't contribute to actually building it (i.e. leave in only direct labour cost, direct material cost - strip out b(w)anking, speculative costs, estate agents, 'experts', taxes and other state rip offs etc) how many houses of whatever sort you want you could build (yourself, and with paid help from friends where needed) if you had that amount in your hand to pay yourself a reasonable rate for your time and to buy materials. (which latter are actually cheaper than they ever were)
Something is truly rotten in the state of Denmark....
Certainly a skilled man or a manager back then was relative to the general population much better off. It was the same in the US - up to the 70s a blue collar guy with a fairly ordinary factory job could expect to buy a house and bring up and educate a family off his wages too.
It's perhaps a lot to do with unskilled labour becoming so expensive, with property becoming so much a speculative commodity (you've got a bubble once houses cost more than the average punter can afford i.e. that you have to rely on selling an earlier property that has appreciated to get there) and probably also with what's probably a general decline in the Western economies.
Don't forget either just how much of our national wealth goes into keeping going the bloated and predatory bureaucracy the state has become. Also how many of the professional groups have managed to force a scenario where you have to use them, as where as a result they keep on ratcheting up their costs.
Wealth seems (perhaps much to do with what's happened to property and hence banking - at the expense of the middle classes) to have become highly concentrated in certain narrow sections of society too.
On timber frame houses. Not sure if it's typical Roger, but that's just the sort that has become fairly standard over here. I guess all wood construction has a whole body of expertise associated with it too, but you could easily read it up and i see where you are coming from on DIY house building.
Here's a sobering thought that brings both of these strands of the topic together. Take your average mortgage amount, multiply it by about 5 to get the amount you will actually pay back over its 20 or 25 year life.
Now ask yourself if you strip away all of the layers of cost that don't contribute to actually building it (i.e. leave in only direct labour cost, direct material cost - strip out b(w)anking, speculative costs, estate agents, 'experts', taxes and other state rip offs etc) how many houses of whatever sort you want you could build (yourself, and with paid help from friends where needed) if you had that amount in your hand to pay yourself a reasonable rate for your time and to buy materials. (which latter are actually cheaper than they ever were)
Something is truly rotten in the state of Denmark....
ByronBlack
Established Member
There still seems to reasonably priced plots of land in the north of scotland, but that might be too cold for me, and I need a broadband connection to earn money.
France is something I've often thought about due to it's close location and excellent transport links, and of course no immigration issues as with Canada/USA/Australia et al.
The only thing that puts me off from going to somewhere like France is learning the language and culture.
I've had a chat with a guy who builds cottages in bulgaria, it's super-cheap out there, and the landscape is amazing, but the culture is very very different to what we have here.
Ideally, I'd like to go to the USA somewhere, but getting in is almost impossible for me as I'm not classed as 'skilled'.
If I were to self-build, I would be looking at either a kit, or build of a pre-existing plan to cut down on the design work and to help stay within the regs, and reduce the cost of architects fee's. The tumbleweed place sells reasonably priced plans - and this would probably help with determining planning as they are professionally drawn - not sure if there is an issue with them coming from an American point of view, there's bound to be some design paradigms that are different to ours..
France is something I've often thought about due to it's close location and excellent transport links, and of course no immigration issues as with Canada/USA/Australia et al.
The only thing that puts me off from going to somewhere like France is learning the language and culture.
I've had a chat with a guy who builds cottages in bulgaria, it's super-cheap out there, and the landscape is amazing, but the culture is very very different to what we have here.
Ideally, I'd like to go to the USA somewhere, but getting in is almost impossible for me as I'm not classed as 'skilled'.
If I were to self-build, I would be looking at either a kit, or build of a pre-existing plan to cut down on the design work and to help stay within the regs, and reduce the cost of architects fee's. The tumbleweed place sells reasonably priced plans - and this would probably help with determining planning as they are professionally drawn - not sure if there is an issue with them coming from an American point of view, there's bound to be some design paradigms that are different to ours..
ByronBlack":15n5m5oy said:
Hey, it's not that bad - Aviemore was the hottest place in the UK a couple of days ago! And broadband has got here; in fact, I think I get more consistent service than in Milton Keynes!
But you would have to learn the Doric to be able to converse with the locals
ByronBlack
Established Member
dickm":1jg9863s said:Hey, it's not that bad - Aviemore was the hottest place in the UK a couple of days ago! And broadband has got here; in fact, I think I get more consistent service than in Milton Keynes!
But you would have to learn the Doric to be able to converse with the locals
It's the winters I would worry about - I like being remote but being cut-off by 10ft depth of snow might be beyond me
Well there's houses in Wales, according to today's press, at 28500 quid!
I was watching 'Escape to the Country' some time ago and the couple were moving from Milton Keynes, the chap was a builder and had built his own house in mc. Nothing special, he paid, wait for it!, £175000 FOR THE PLOT!
Roy.
I was watching 'Escape to the Country' some time ago and the couple were moving from Milton Keynes, the chap was a builder and had built his own house in mc. Nothing special, he paid, wait for it!, £175000 FOR THE PLOT!
Roy.
jorgoz
Established Member
My view on the explosing plot prices is the real estate agents. They drive prices up and as long as there are 'fools' who pay premium that's not about to change. Another problem is wages haven't followed rise in prices of all products available. The only thing that seems to get cheaper is electronics, but many of those products are not what you would call necessary to have a meaningful life.
Over here in Belgium, the space is quite limited, while demand is high and offer is low prices skyrocket. Another problem i find is that you're practically on your neighbors lap because the plots are small and located one next to the other.
I've been thinking about France too, but it really depends where in France. The south has high priced plots too. Provinces like the Drôme are more affordable, but then again, you're further away from everything (work - food stores - schools). And you need quite a bit of money upfront to move abroad.
Another place i've been checking out is Portugal. Now there's almost always good weather there, plots are really cheap and BIG. But everything is far away. But handwork is still much appreciated and practiced over there.
Over here in Belgium, the space is quite limited, while demand is high and offer is low prices skyrocket. Another problem i find is that you're practically on your neighbors lap because the plots are small and located one next to the other.
I've been thinking about France too, but it really depends where in France. The south has high priced plots too. Provinces like the Drôme are more affordable, but then again, you're further away from everything (work - food stores - schools). And you need quite a bit of money upfront to move abroad.
Another place i've been checking out is Portugal. Now there's almost always good weather there, plots are really cheap and BIG. But everything is far away. But handwork is still much appreciated and practiced over there.
Another 'con' with house prices is insurance. When I was selling it I always explained to people that the market value of their home was not the value for insurance purposes.
Short of the whole lot vanishing into the sea the plot remains, there is no need to insure that!
Roy.
Short of the whole lot vanishing into the sea the plot remains, there is no need to insure that!
Roy.
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