Building control gone mad?

[Bingy man]

How do you prove competency, you may have worked in a discipline for a number of years or taken and been given certificates from the made up organisations that have appeared since the use of the word competent in jargon written by the same organisations with competency registrations lists, none of this proves competency, just that you are a drone driven by the media to follow the heard, Lets look at the "IET Wiring Regulations" they have no legal standing as they are not legislated, have not been through the legal government process or issued by the "Secretary of State" they are a British Standard only which is a guidance document, if it can be demonstrated that you carried out your work to a higher standard then that covers the need and qualification of competent, never been tested in court, but would make a very interesting case study.

You prove competence by completing the accs accreditation in the various sections - cooking appliances, meters and pipework, space heaters , tumble dryers, ducted air heaters , central heating upto 70 kw , water heaters , etc etc etc , made up of practical assessments and written exams in the form of over 100 multiple choice questions - the pass rate is 100% - fail any element practical or written and you get referred and you have to take that element again . This you have to do every 5 years or with my x employer every 4 years . On top of this you are assessed at regular intervals by safety control engineers and they take no prisoners. Fail to correctly identify a dangerous appliance or installation or leave a gas escape or cause injury to person or persons causing hospitalisation then your at the mercy of your employer, gas safe , hse and don’t forget the criminal justice system. Then there is your overall safety score which is also monitored and any indiscretions will leave you labelled as ( reason for concern ) and this can see your previous 12 months jobs being investigated. If you can maintain all of this over 5 10 15 30 years without incident then this is in my mind competency of the highest level ..

 

[MikeJhn]

If that is the right thing, then 3(1) says there is a requirement for competency on the part of anyone doing any work on a gas installation, 3(2) says employers and self-employed people controlling such works shall ensure that the people doing the work are competent, and 3(3) says to ensure that is the case all employees and self-employed have to be members of an HSE approved scheme (ie Gas Safe).

None of that says that a competent person cannot carry out work which is not for reward despite not being Gas Safe registered. Unless there is reward involved, it looks like the basic 3(1) requirement of competence is all that applies. So the claim it is illegal for any work to be carried out unless by a Gas Safe engineer is not true under that SI at least.

Different question as to how sensible it would be to claim competence but that's going to be fact-specific.

Well that is a very convenient way to interpret the legislation to allow someone working for no reward to work on Gas, but then 3(1) can be interpreted to include those that work for no reward, even if they are given a cup of tea.

 

[Bingy man]

If that is the right thing, then 3(1) says there is a requirement for competency on the part of anyone doing any work on a gas installation, 3(2) says employers and self-employed people controlling such works shall ensure that the people doing the work are competent, and 3(3) says to ensure that is the case all employees and self-employed have to be members of an HSE approved scheme (ie Gas Safe).

None of that says that a competent person cannot carry out work which is not for reward despite not being Gas Safe registered. Unless there is reward involved, it looks like the basic 3(1) requirement of competence is all that applies. So the claim it is illegal for any work to be carried out unless by a Gas Safe engineer is not true under that SI at least.

Different question as to how sensible it would be to claim competence but that's going to be fact-specific.

If joe soap fits a gas appliance and in doing so kills the occupants of the house he will be prosecuted under the laws of this country . Because he is not gas safe registered or even experienced in such matters as installing gas appliances he / she will be deemed incompetent and will get a lesser sentence as he or she knows no better than an experienced, competent, fully qualified gas engineer . The latter would be classed as negligent and would probably feel the full weight of the law fines/ imprisonment . simply put you would have course know better but for whatever reason you chose not to install the appliance as per your training and in accordance with gas safe , and the manufacturer instructions etc etc

 

[Bingy man]

Yeah sorry your honour I killed those people but it’s okay and you shouldn’t jail me because I did the work for free,

 

[Jake]

Well that is a very convenient way to interpret the legislation to allow someone working for no reward to work on Gas, but then 3(1) can be interpreted to include those that work for no reward, even if they are given a cup of tea.

I don't know what you mean by convenient. I would not work on my own gas if that is what you are implying. 3(1) applies irrespective of reward or not, you need to be competent or it's not lawful (did not see a criminal offence explicitly but that may be in the parent statute.

You can't do anything unless you are competent - cup of tea or not. But if you are an employer, employee or self-employed the further restrictions kick in including HSE approved certification of that competency (i.e. Gas Safe).

 

[Jake]

If joe soap fits a gas appliance and in doing so kills the occupants of the house he will be prosecuted under the laws of this country . Because he is not gas safe registered or even experienced in such matters as installing gas appliances he / she will be deemed incompetent and will get a lesser sentence as he or she knows no better than an experienced, competent, fully qualified gas engineer . The latter would be classed as negligent and would probably feel the full weight of the law fines/ imprisonment . simply put you would have course know better but for whatever reason you chose not to install the appliance as per your training and in accordance with gas safe , and the manufacturer instructions etc etc

This is a strawman. You are self-defining the person as not competent. Suppose Joe Soap is a time served 40 year career former Gas Safe engineer who retired last week. I don't think he would be doing anything unlawful if he worked on his own house despite no longer being accredited.

 

[Bingy man]

This is a strawman. You are self-defining the person as not competent. Suppose Joe Soap is a time served 40 year career former Gas Safe engineer who retired last week. I don't think he would be doing anything unlawful if he worked on his own house despite no longer being accredited.

I’m not referring to anyone like myself who has done 30 + years, never had a serious issue or or incident or safety concern , as I let my gas safe lapse for my own reasons - i,m referring to unqualified people eg a plumber who is experienced and capable of soldering copper pipework ( water)installing a gas fired c h boiler or anyone else who does not hold the relevant qualifications but for whatever reason decides its a good plan install a gas appliance.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... competency is shown by being on the gas safe register ...

You might need to be competent to get on it but it has no bearing on other people's not being competent, it just means they're not tested/registered/insured? etc. Competent/competency are the wrong words and this should have been picked up long ago. If I read legal or professionally produced literature I expect the use of English to be correct, it should be unambiguous.

 

[dgs2001]

This is a strawman. You are self-defining the person as not competent. Suppose Joe Soap is a time served 40 year career former Gas Safe engineer who retired last week. I don't think he would be doing anything unlawful if he worked on his own house despite no longer being accredited.

It is perfectly acceptable for a homeowner to deem themselves competent without taking any course or qualification.

If Joe Soap as a homeowner works on his own gas and does so safely without any issues then he could be deemed to be competent, however he would need to be able to prove if asked that he had not endangered himself or any other person/property by doing such work, and would likely need to prove competence beyond the simple task carried out. The reality is that if nothing goes wrong then nobody is ever going to question competence.

If however Joe Soap as a homeowner works on his own gas, creates a gas leak and causes any damage to property or endangers life or causes any injury to himself or others then he was not competent and would be rightly faced with a bang to rights prosecution.

The rules surrounding work on Gas and Electrical systems, both of which are notifiable are covered under various Statutory Instruments and Acts which fall under the umbrella of the Health And Safety at Work Act, but I cant remember any that apply to homeowners completing DIY, other than where there is potential for harm to others (Neighbours, members of the public nearby etc).

The sad reality is that these rules and regulations are in place not to prevent us from carrying out activities we feel competent to carry out but to ensure that when things go wrong the relevant authority can be assured of a successful prosecution and give themselves a reassuring pat on the back/bigger bonus and increased yearly fees for the members of the scheme.


For the record I am not condoning or promoting illegal Gas work. I would strongly recommend the use of a Gas registered engineer for all works involving gas.

 

[Dave Moore]

Hi,
Before I retired in 2022 I did a lot of work on the Scunthorpe steelworks on copper and carbon pipe on Oxygen. The copper was basically domestic standard 15,22,28 and 36mm cleaned for oxygen service and silver soldered. I’ve literally completed hundreds of joints over the years and some of them blind. Only difference apart from the solder was I put a visible bead around the top after running the solder in which requires playing with the heat to ensure the second run isn’t just sucked into the joint. The thing is there isn’t actually a competency test for this and after searching online many times I only ever found one company in this country that wrote their own procedure and got Zurich insurance to cover them. I wrote a procedure and asked our testing company to set up a competency test for us to have something on paper. About 5 yrs later and still waiting!
Regards,
Dave

 

[Jake]

... competency is shown by being on the gas safe register ...

You might need to be competent to get on it but it has no bearing on other people's not being competent, it just means they're not tested/registered/insured? etc. Competent/competency are the wrong words and this should have been picked up long ago. If I read legal or professionally produced literature I expect the use of English to be correct, it should be unambiguous.

Competency is the base requirement to do anything under any conditions on gas services, but you also need to be able to prove that competency by being on the gas safe register if you are doing it for work. The language is very clear and unambiguous. You are confusing matters by thinking that being on the register is the definition of competency, rather than the only way to prove you are competent *if you are doing it for work*.

 

[Bingy man]

There Seems to be a percentage of contributors to this thread that think by interpreting the rules and regulations regarding this subject. I’m of the opinion these members would deem it ok for them to drive a hgv or captain a ship or maybe fly a commercial airplane because they are competent . Many years ago I think you could install gas appliances in your own home at your own risk but it was not widely done . In todays world the rules and law are clear - if you are gas registered and have the necessary safety equipment and not to mention the expertise to cover all your elements then you should not be touching gas or gas related equipment and appliances. I’m surprised the mods haven’t stepped in and shut this thread down . I personally was hoping to get a resounding No TO WORK On GAS. unless you are fully qualified and registered with gas safe but it seems not . It’s no wonder I capped of so many fires and cookers and boilers that were dangerous and jyst waiting to kill some poor unfortunate family or elderly couple or kids - sorry but shame on you and I hope you never have to attend the funeral of one of your loved ones because your ego told you it was ok that you competently incorrectly installed your own gas appliance ..

 

[MikeJhn]

Even though "Gas Safe" and everyones opinion is valid, can we now get back to the subject of the thread, "Building Control".

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Competency is the base requirement to do anything under any conditions on gas services, but you also need to be able to prove that competency by being on the gas safe register if you are doing it for work. The language is very clear and unambiguous. You are confusing matters by thinking that being on the register is the definition of competency, rather than the only way to prove you are competent *if you are doing it for work*.

The language is very clear and unambiguous? That's the problem - it isn't.

 

[Jake]

The language is very clear and unambiguous? That's the problem - it isn't.

Well, it is. What don't you understand about it?

 

[Agent_zed]

I watch a lot of the American renovation shows and it seems you need a 'ticket' to do literally anything over there. I may be wrong as I don't live there but certainly the shows seem to show this to be the case.

I agree with the sentiment on leaving Gas well alone, but I am loathe to it becoming a situation where if you want to put a flowerpot on your window sill you need BC.

It is hard to know where to draw the line. Some people can easily wire a house whilst others wouldn't know where to start even changing a lightswitch. If you go for the lowest common denominator then you would have to say you can't do anything without an official accreditation. Not even changing a fuse in a plug as you might put the wrong one in. Probably more dangerous to put a 13amp fuse in a 3amp appliance, than to 'hide' a junction box in a stud wall.

To my mind that is why they use the word competent rather than qualified in most of the regulations as it allows for some less risky things to be done.