Bringing goods from the EU

[sploo]

You never once voted for the upper echelons of the EU either. That didn't seem to bother you.

I assume that was the point Robin was making; one of the frequent criticisms of the EU is that "we" don't vote specific people into specific positions - but our system of rule is basically the same. I.e. the argument is a bit moot (being ruled by "our lot" is really no better than "their lot").

 

[jcassidy]

We are driven by the west being "right" and the concept that it might not be is what will fracture the west.

Which bit of 'Western' culture isn't 'right'? The bit about some level of freedom of speech? A fair amount of respect for the rule of law? A general respect for human rights? An expectation of good public governance? Those are the things that bind the 'West' together.

The mistake people the 'West' (that is, nations with a democratic system of government, separation of powers, educated, and progressive) make is thinking that everyone else shares the same values. Its becoming increasingly clear that a significant portion of Eastern European nations don't.

 

[sploo]

Might be more interesting to ask the average German how they feel about paying for their neighbours new found prosperity, particularly following our departure when they and other net contributors will be paying considerably more.

Depends what you mean by the average German. Being married to one (and having lots of German family) I can tell you clearly what they'd feel.

At least among that extended circle of family and friends (mostly originating from East and West Berlin) there's a very real memory of the division of the city and a desire for unity rather than isolation.

But are they "average". Probably no more average than just about everyone I knew in the UK that thought Brexit was an insanity.

 

[sploo]

Personally I didn't like the direction of travel. Couldn't influence it in any way, much as I would have liked to, so voted to leave.

And then we sank.

(I'm joking. I hope)

EDIT: Maybe I should have said instead, "and then you handed the helm to Dominic Raab; who didn't realise we were surrounded by water - how's that going to work out?"

A good analogy. The problem with the big ship idea is that the bigger the shop the less agile it becomes, taking an age to turn and about 5 miles to stop. Very bad at responding quickly to any situation. Look at the howling balls up that has been made of the whole immigration issue as an example.

Ignoring the final sentence (because that really could do with some references and/or evidence) do you want your government to be able to make rapid changes, or just plod along and keep things running? Personally I'd rather politicians were pretty hamstrung, and could do little more than keeping the light bulbs in the streetlamps lit. When they get free reign to be "agile" it means they screw things up every few years (each time a new set of under qualified morons take charge), and make sweeping changes to education, health, rights, and economics; usually based only on their own personal convictions, and that idea they had whilst they were being b*ggered by one of the bigger boys in the toilets at Eton.

What you actually mean is, public support for the EU cash cow is very high, and public support for outwards freedom of movement is very high, but public support for some fundamental principles such as respect for the rule of law and universal human rights, nah not so much.

Some years ago I saw a great poll of UKIP supporters; who (unsurprisingly) were strongly against immigration to the UK. They were also quite strongly supportive of the right for Brits to live as ex-pats in Spain. Irony clearly being the thing you use to flatten your shirtony.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But are they "average". Probably no more average than just about everyone I knew in the UK that thought Brexit was an insanity.

We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.

 

[sploo]

We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.

That's the problem - we all live in our own little bubbles (which tend to echo our own views). I know these threads tend to stir things up somewhat but I value them because it means we're exposed to opposing opinions (which is healthy).

 

[Rorschach]

We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.

I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.

My own personal experience is that I know a few people who voted remain, a few who voted leave, some were very passionate on each side, some were much less fussed like myself. The majority of people I know/met though, didn't seem to care either way and didn't bother voting, and still today they don't really care either way.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It doesn't surprise me that London voted remain - it has millions of first, second and third generation immigrants, so any mention of being anti immigration and they vote the opposite way. A huge number of influential people in London have jobs that are/were connected to if not dependent upon the EU, which must have skewed it as well.

 

[billw]

Which bit of 'Western' culture isn't 'right'? The bit about some level of freedom of speech? A fair amount of respect for the rule of law? A general respect for human rights? An expectation of good public governance? Those are the things that bind the 'West' together.

The mistake people the 'West' (that is, nations with a democratic system of government, separation of powers, educated, and progressive) make is thinking that everyone else shares the same values. Its becoming increasingly clear that a significant portion of Eastern European nations don't.

Well those things are certainly what the West believes in, but that's not to say everyone does and to them our views are wrong. We're, as individuals, prone to believing our own system is the right one and others must be wrong, and my point was that we're not in a position to judge.

As for Eastern Europe, well it's a fair portion of the world that doesn't really share the same opinions, whether in whole or part. It's obviously the Chinese model that's most unpalatable to us right now, and they're being framed as a threat to us.

 

[sploo]

I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.

My own personal experience is that I know a few people who voted remain, a few who voted leave, some were very passionate on each side, some were much less fussed like myself. The majority of people I know/met though, didn't seem to care either way and didn't bother voting, and still today they don't really care either way.

It's likely true that the majority don't really care that much either way; except perhaps when they get a nasty surprise due to unexpected import charges on an item that's come from the EU - but in time those charges will be clear (so people will just accept the new price they see).

But that in itself is a problem; if you look at some of the votes in the House of Commons in recent weeks we've had protections against changes to workers' rights and the NHS removed. The government assures us that they don't plan to actually change anything (though they've already backtracked that one with proposed changes to the working time directive).

Like boiling a frog slowly, people won't notice as the NHS is further privatised, and their rights are further eroded by those who will make a tidy sum from exploiting us plebs. At least, until it's too late anyway.

 

[Rorschach]

It's likely true that the majority don't really care that much either way; except perhaps when they get a nasty surprise due to unexpected import charges on an item that's come from the EU - but in time those charges will be clear (so people will just accept the new price they see).

But that in itself is a problem; if you look at some of the votes in the House of Commons in recent weeks we've had protections against changes to workers' rights and the NHS removed. The government assures us that they don't plan to actually change anything (though they've already backtracked that one with proposed changes to the working time directive).

Like boiling a frog slowly, people won't notice as the NHS is further privatised, and their rights are further eroded by those who will make a tidy sum from exploiting us plebs. At least, until it's too late anyway.

You assume though that everyone is against changes? What's wrong with change, it isn't always for the worse.

Speaking personally (though I know I am not alone), I think the NHS/PHE is a shambles and not fit for purpose. We pay too much money for a sub-par service that is revered like a religion in this country despite very poor outcomes in many diseases. It has too many bureaucrats and is too centralised making it clunky and slow to act as we have seen to our cost in the last year. Scare stories about privatisation prevent us from having the proper conversations needed to reform the NHS.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A point made some long while ago in the Press - it's very often the people who treat the NHS as sacrosact that prevent its improvement. Funny how there isn't one other Country that's copied it, glad as I am we have it.

 

[Jacob]

You never once voted for the upper echelons of the EU either. That didn't seem to bother you.

You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.

 

[Rorschach]

You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.

You might like to look into what powers MEP's have.

 

[Jacob]

You might like to look into what powers MEP's have.

Yes I think you should.
On another note: How Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is proving a nightmare for UK businesses

 

[Rorschach]

Yes I think you should.
On another note: How Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is proving a nightmare for UK businesses

That response sums up your entire argument perfectly.

 

[Jacob]

".....Things have reached such a pass that Nissan’s announcement last week that the future of its Sunderland plant was secure was hailed as very good news – pre-Brexit, its future was never in doubt. And on Sunday came the revelation that the government’s own trade advisers are telling struggling businesses to set up separate companies inside the EU to circumvent the new barriers....."
All madness really. Not as mad as 74 million votes for Trump but with far worse and longer term consequences for the UK than orange man ever was for the USA

 

[Jacob]

It doesn't surprise me that London voted remain - it has millions of first, second and third generation immigrants, so any mention of being anti immigration and they vote the opposite way. A huge number of influential people in London have jobs that are/were connected to if not dependent upon the EU, which must have skewed it as well.

Scotland and NI voted remain too. Wales was close and would do now with hindsight. Those immigrants get everywhere!
On another note- interesting that Britain's "special relationship" with USA is shifting from London to Dublin. Not surprising but a long time coming, considering Cromwell's part in the formation of the USA.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.

I'm intrigued ... "London types"?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.

Who aren't the upper echelons - they're there to rubber stamp.