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Like Terry I also completed a degree in Economics, probably also like Terry I get heartily tired of the "is economics a science" debate.

An analogy that captures it for me is this, Economics is a science in the same way Medicine is a science. There was a time when medicine consisted of applying leeches, it's evolved to where there's organ transplants and bio-engineering, but there's still no cure for cancer or the common cold, so undoubtedly there's a way to go yet. Think of economics in those terms, it went beyond applying leeches with the insights of Adam Smith, but there's still a long way to go.
 
Medicine isn't a science there is such thing as medical science but that's a different kettle of fish. My first career was as a medical scientist but the pay was poor and I was too thick to be anything but mediocre.

Richard Wilson the actor was in the same profession, all together now.......I Don't believe it !!!
 
AJB Temple":1lg1yk2s said:
There are some interesting people on this forum! Very wide ranging.

It's the diversity that throws any one perspective into sharp relief, a salutary lesson that constantly reminds me no-one has a monopoly on the truth.

I rather like the range of perspectives which are so very clearly influenced by education and demography. As I once mentioned before, it's woodwork which unites us, that's the glue, the elastic that surrounds the other views is pretty stretched at times!
 
DennisCA":1yigye7s said:
heimlaga":1yigye7s said:
I don't believe in a domestically driven economy. Essentially that means exploitation of the mayority at the benefit of the few. Feudalism for instance. Or slavery. Like Russia in the old days. Or just a mayority of landless and homeless poor working hard while living on the brink of starvation for the benefit of a small super rich nobility. Not a society worth having.

I don't see why this should be so. Before globalization most economies where based a lot more on national trade. France has an economy that's still driven quite a lot by domestic demand, they're hardly feudal or unequal.

That's right. I think we were talking past one another a bit. A quite high level of reliance on domestic demand is very sound and altogether a very good thing. A sort of national selfsufficiency.
What isn't sound is when politicians try to lift the national economy by increasing the domestic purchasing power of the rich at the cost of the rest of society......and unfortunately they tend to talk about the imortance of domestic demand.
 
"France has an economy that's still driven quite a lot by domestic demand, they're hardly feudal or unequal."
No, but quite well subsidised by the CAP. Less unequal than some.
Aaaaannnyyyyyyway ...
 
Indeed. One doesn't like to comment but I think France has run an annual trade deficit since the 1970s. They are however a net exporter to the UK and have a sizeable trade surplus with us. All that vino perhaps.
 
AJB Temple":1ph31n9r said:
Referencing a pre globalisation economic era is in my view wishful thinking. Globalisation has happened and will not reverse.

It has reversed in the past (ww1) and probably will again, globalisation as an unstoppable force is something of a myth. It's not a natural force that sprang up on its own but infact something that required lots and lots of trade deals and frameworks that required years of work to implement (while people were protesting in the streets, much like today and TTIP). It'll ebb and flow like most other things. We just need to look at the economic situation for the majority of people, the collapse of center parties across europe, looming financial problems, the bailout of a financial sector that might have been just CPR for someone terminally ill anyway (Mark Blyth: Austerity). The politics of europe are in change and its a little scary.
 
I want to quote from Mark Blyths book, Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea which I finished last night and that I truly recommend for anyone who wants to know more about europe and the financial crisis we're still in here in europe, it's written to appeal to laymen and he also has plenty of videos on youtube giving lectures, very good, very accessible for laymen, quite funny, gets to the point that many others try to obfuscate around instead.

If this conjecture of his has merit, Britain is going to need another business model than financial sector finagling because it might be ending. Banking as we've come to know it post-reagan might be dead, new economies will have to be based on real things for real people, not bubbles and complex game like structures.

The End of Banking

The story of the crisis reconstructed in chapters 2 and 3 can, and perhaps should, be seen in a bigger
context. At the end of the Bretton Woods era, when the United States finally went off gold in 1971,
states around the world had to adjust to what Eric Helleiner has called “the reemergence of global
finance.”3 Floating exchange rates, deregulation, disintermediation, and the rest, which made finance
the most profitable sector of the American and British economies by the 2000s, was the new order of
things. But what was it all really based upon? After all, finance is most properly thought of as a part of
the information system of the economy: linking borrowers and lenders while sitting in the middle
collecting a fee. It’s not an industry in the traditional sense, and it certainly should not have been
producing 40 percent of corporate profits in the United States on the eve of the crisis—so why was it
able to do just that?

Global finance made so much hay, not through efficient markets but by riding up and down three
interlinked giant global asset bubbles using huge amounts of leverage. The first bubble began in US
equities in 1987 and ran, with a dip in the dot-com era, until 2007. It was the longest equity bull
market in history, and it spread out from the United States to boost stock markets all over the world.
The smart cash that was being made in those equity markets looked around for a hedge and found real
estate, which began its own global bubble phase in 1997 and ran until the crisis hit in 2006. The final
bubble occurred in commodities, which rose sharply in 2005 and 2006, long before anyone had heard
the words “quantitative easing,” and which burst quickly since these were comparatively tiny markets,
too small to sustain such volumes of liquidity all hunting either safety or yield. The popping of these
interlinked bubbles combined with losses in the subprime sector of the mortgage derivatives market to
trigger the current crisis. A picture again is useful. In figure 7.1 we see these three asset bubbles (Dow
Jones Stocks, S&P’s Case-Schiller Index of Housing, and gold/oil prices) scaled against time.
We can clearly see the bust beginning in housing in 2006 hitting stocks and then commodities.
What we see since then are stocks rising due to central bank liquidity programs providing asset
insurance for purchases of underwater equities. Commodities have also rallied as investors
increasingly piled into them in an effort to find positive yield in a zero interest-rate environment. Real
estate has yet to recover.

Now, take away liquidity support and the hunt for yield and there’s a problem going forward. You
can only generate bubbles of this magnitude if there are assets that are either undervalued, or are at
least perceived to be undervalued, and that can serve as fuel for the bubble. US equities had been flat
for a generation back in the early 1980s. US housing was cheap and patterns of demand were
changing. Commodities used to be a niche market. Finance changed all that, pumping and dumping
these asset classes and taking profits along the way for twenty-five years. It was a great run while it
lasted, but now, after the bust, could it be over?

Sovereigns are stretched, and eventually liquidity support and zero rates will come to an end on
what will be a much weaker underlying economy. Equities will decline in value, commodities too, as
global demand weakens, and housing, outside a few markets, is not going to be increasing in value at 7
to 10 percent a year anytime soon. But deprived of fuel for the asset cycle, all those wonderful paper
assets that can be based off these booms—commodity ETFs, interest rate swaps, CDOs and CDSs—to
name but a few—will cease to be the great money machine that they have been to date. Having
pumped and dumped every asset class on the planet, finance may have exhausted its own growth
model. The banks’ business model for the past twenty-five years may be dying. If so, saving it in the
bust is merely, and most expensively, prolonging the agony. Anticipating John Quiggin’s Zombie
Economics, we may have endured austerity to bring back the nearly dead.

Is there any evidence for this bold conjecture? A bit. Banks everywhere are delevering, which will
reduce lending, hitting growth and thus the volume of business that they conduct. Bank equity prices
and market capitalization have fallen drastically over the past two years. Revenues by asset class are
falling. Underwriting has shrunk and trading is not what it used to be.4 Fixed costs are increasing
while bonuses are shrinking and the sector as a whole is getting smaller.5 Meanwhile, what growth
there is seems to be on the retail rather than the investment banking side.6 But retail depends more
directly on the real economy, which is shrinking because of austerity. In sum, we may have
impoverished a few million people to save an industry of dubious social utility that is now on its last
legs. This is a discomfiting thought that strongly suggests that we really should not have bailed them
after all. And there’s another reason for thinking this way, independent of this: it’s called Dublin.
 
The article and book is biased of course (I have read it), but the central themes are not inconsistent with the view I expressed earlier. The UK has developed a large dependence on a service sector that is rather globally focussed. The banks are a very large part of that. If banks decline many people will clap their hands in glee apparently oblivious to their own increasing impoverishment. Within the UK we don't get far selling stuff to each other. We must develop products and services that create demand and positive cash inflows to the country. Anyone can produce this critical analysis - identifying problems is always easier than creating solutions. We need creative solution oriented businessmen now.
 
We need manufacturing, but not any old manufacturing. Some years ago a brewery local to me celebrated (while they were still solvent) a huge contract sending slabs of beer to Moscow. Anyone with half a brain could see that at best they were buying work, at worst risking losing a lot of money. They managed both. We need to be building the world's best computers, cameras, hifis etc. that are high value, low bulk, and low (comparatively) on imported material costs - this is not the place for high weight and volume low value manufacturing, China can keep that.
 
Good point Phil!

To achieve that one would need to break with the current trend of international coporativism and form a "mittelschtand" as the Germans call it. Lots of small and mid sized locally owned manufacturing industries who don't have to chase eternal rize on the stock exchange and hence can afford to invest in long term profits and in advanced production of products that can me sold with a profit.

If we only could change the current western world trend of bargain-seeking surface-oriented hysterical consumerism a wee bit then there would suddenly be a market for plain yet good products of all sorts. Enough to lift buth my country and yours out of the crisis.
 
AJB Temple":4d2cz2po said:
We must develop products and services that create demand and positive cash inflows to the country. Anyone can produce this critical analysis - identifying problems is always easier than creating solutions. We need creative solution oriented businessmen now.

We need government ministers and MPs who have a "proper" industrial working background rather than career politicians. They need to look at the cost of rates and power to manufacturing industry, which are far cheaper in some other countries.

i also have residence in Portugal and a new business setting up can get 5 years rates free.
 
Realistically it will be very difficult to get top flight business people to become MPs. For many it would be a salary cut. Plus constant media scrutiny and criticism. And swamped with work some of which is important and some trivial but hardly any of which you can control. Plus our system of confrontational politics. It is not an attractive job for many with real skills and experience.

I agree 100% on business rates. I set up a business in central London 5 years ago and the business rates burden is huge. No reliefs. Apprentice support is also terrible. When you add up all of the taxes that businesses bear, including rates, corporation tax, employers NIC, VAT (we are in a VAT exempt industry so we have to suffer the input tax burden with no recovery), PIID taxes, and various levies, it is a large taxation burden and a serious disincentive to risk taking and investment.
 
There is rates relief in the UK, but it depends on where you are.

I get 100%.

The price increase for materials means the work we have already priced for and got deposits will not be quite as profitable, I think we are going to be about 10% out on materials but will manage, we will be able to claw some of it back but not all.

And talking to machinery dealers about some new kit we are looking at, the prices are starting to go up quite fast as well, which means that I am looking at a couple of grand more than I would have.
 
tomatwark":31kwhoi6 said:
And talking to machinery dealers about some new kit we are looking at, the prices are starting to go up quite fast as well, which means that I am looking at a couple of grand more than I would have.

I suspect a lot of suppliers are looking at the media making lots of comments about imported inflation due to a lower pound and seeing an opportunity to build some margin.

Terry.
 
Why? Why would any company, in any competitive industry, gratuitously raise their prices in a difficult market, making themselves even more unattractive to those few buyers who are in the market? That doesn't make sense.

The fact is, whatever the future may hold, we are currently, as a nation, 10% less wealthy than we were just a couple of weeks ago.

I've been thinking of getting a second camera, for when I finally get myself into gear filming again. I already have a Lumix G7, which is superb and was considering getting another, so I can have two POVs. I found it online at £369.99. Do I really want to spend that much money right now? Not really.

I thought about it.

Went to bed on Wednesday. Woke up Thursday, decided to go for it.

Same camera, same website, new price, £399.99. While I was asleep (or at least, trying to be).

How can any business, charged with making a profit for those who have invested their money to build it, not pass on the extra price? We are simply much poorer than we used to be, and no-one knows how long that will continue.

On the upside, Boris as FS, hilarious! He is going to squirm for quite a while, methinks. Who says TM doesn't have a sense of humour?
 
Steve Maskery":2e1iz0cs said:
Why? Why would any company, in any competitive industry, gratuitously raise their prices in a difficult market, making themselves even more unattractive to those few buyers who are in the market? That doesn't make sense.

The fact is, whatever the future may hold, we are currently, as a nation, 10% less wealthy than we were just a couple of weeks ago.

I've been thinking of getting a second camera, for when I finally get myself into gear filming again. I already have a Lumix G7, which is superb and was considering getting another, so I can have two POVs. I found it online at £369.99. Do I really want to spend that much money right now? Not really.

I thought about it.

Went to bed on Wednesday. Woke up Thursday, decided to go for it.

Same camera, same website, new price, £399.99. While I was asleep (or at least, trying to be).

How can any business, charged with making a profit for those who have invested their money to build it, not pass on the extra price? We are simply much poorer than we used to be, and no-one knows how long that will continue.

Steve

That is just not how a well run business works, there is something called hedging. Has that camera come down in price by 2% today as the pound rose when there was not the widely anticipated cut in interest rates?

Terry.
 
Terry
I know what Hedging is.
Please explain how I, personally, can Hedge against the cost of my food, my petrol, my energy, my clothing, and anything else I wish to buy.
However it is done, I didn't do it and I am a lot poorer as a result.
 
Steve Maskery":21rfcvr1 said:
Terry
I know what Hedging is.
Please explain how I, personally, can Hedge against the cost of my food, my petrol, my energy, my clothing, and anything else I wish to buy.

Steve

We were not talking about you, I said companies were profiteering, you said they were not and had no choice but to change prices the moment exchange rates move. So I do not understand why you now ask how you can hedge.

However, the most basic form of hedging is matching costs and revenues in terms of currency. So if you have a pound only income but non pound costs, for example you buy imported food that is produced in the US you could generate a US Dollar revenue stream by selling pound assets and buying US Dollar bonds. Alternatively you could realign your cost base by buying only food produced in the UK.

Alternatively you simply need to determine which currencies you are long or short in and then use spread betting to hedge your exposure.

A few years back for tax structuring reasons I ended up with a large holding of US Dollar bonds the coupon from which I used to pay my sterling denominated mortgage. In order to ensure my mortgage repayment could be made I simply placed a bet on the dollar buying fewer pounds in the future (sized to cover my dollr:pound exposure). If the dollar did buy fewer pounds my bond coupon shortfall was made up for by the gain on the dollar vs pound bet, if the bet went against me the pound value of my dollar coupons exceeded my mortgage by enough to cover the loss on the bet.

THIS IS NOT FINANCIAL ADVICE, I AM NOT SUGGESTING SPREAD BETTING IS APPROPRIATE FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE READING THIS, YOU CAN LOSE A LOT OF MONEY BY SPREAD BETTING ON THE MARKETS WHEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Terry.
 

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