Breaking News: Post Office Scandal

[imageel]

It's a great TV drama, but how the PO were able to take staff to courts for prosecution without reference to the police or CPS is beyond belief, that's got to be changed.

The Post Office and its numerous subsidiaries are ultimately owned by The Crown and like many other government agencies they do not have to refer to other government reporting agencies - the police, CPS etc when prosecuting.

I actually find it strange that most folk appear to lay the blame at the door of Fujitsu when they (Fujitsu) were merely contracted to provide Horizon by the customer who was The Post Office - whilst I have no doubt there were defects in what was delivered ultimately it is the customer i.e. The Post Office who agreed to accept this system as fit-for-purpose and who then allowed it to be rolled out.

 

[treeturner123]

This sorry business is now all over the news but those of us who take Private Eye have been reading about this for years.
I've seen next to no credit given to my favorite news outlet.
I'm guessing the same sort of thing will happen if and when concerns hit the headlines over Freeport development up North.

I too have followed this in that august organ for many years. However, something on TV that is seen by millions AND talked about to others seems to be the best way to deal with attempts to bury incompetencies. Don't forget the Hillsborough documentary which showed the incompetency of the police, not the supporters who were initially blamed by the police and the Sun!

BTW, I see that the designer of the Horizon system is seeking immunity from prosecution .. No Way!

Phil

 

[imageel]

Having spent most of my career working in the IT industry and within highly controlled financial services I watched the TV series with interest and I deduce that one operational problem that Horizon were 'fixing' in their back rooms and exposed by the whistle-blower was the fact that there appeared to be no transactional integrity between the distributed systems within the regional Post Offices and the central systems run by Fujitsu - so figures entered at regional Post Office terminals didn't necessarily agree with what the central Horizon system recorded.
Undoubtedly a pretty significant design flaw however if the Post Office agreed that was acceptable then any blame for it lies with them and not Fujitsu.
If on the other hand one or other party were economical with the truth when the architecture/design was being discussed....

 

[SammyQ]

deleted

 

[White_vinyl]

It’s pretty shabby that it has taken a TV dramatisation of what has gone on to inject a sense of urgency into proceedings.

I thought the same. I've also been following the Great Post Office Trial podcast on the BBC, which debuted in 2020! The fallicies that came out of the reporting were just so obvious, that I can't believe the Post Office has continued to dig its heels in for so long. It was always going to come to a head like this.

 

[naughtymoose]

It's not enough that she "hands back" her CBE. It should have been stripped from her!

I wonder what her parishoners think of her, and how they are interacting with her now?
If a television docudrama is what it takes to get action on things, then we need more television docudramas, don't we?

 

[Jacob]

What amazed me about the whole thing was the almost total absence of whistle blowers. There must have been hundreds/thousands who knew very well what was going on.
And the complete incompetence of the legal process. They worked solely for their client and were prepared to cooperate in lies and cover-ups, but worst of all showed zero concern about the injustice and sufferings of the victims.
Draws into question the independence of the judiciary - they were working "for the few not the many" and making huge profits from "the many" - including the tax payer.
"Judicial independence is a prerequisite to the rule of law and a fundamental guarantee of a fair trial. A judge shall therefore uphold and exemplify judicial independence in both its individual and institutional aspects. Impartiality is essential to the proper discharge of the judicial office."
End of an era? Was always hot air to start with IMHO
Where was the head of the CPS when all this was going on?

 

[JefL]

It's not enough that she "hands back" her CBE. It should have been stripped from her!

I agree. I am dsiappointed she has given it back. The stigma would have been much greater had it been removed by the honours committee.
As for Jacob's comment about the judiciary, don't forget the majority of the prosecutions were 'nodded through' because the defendents pleaded guilty, usually to a lesser charge of false accounting (provided they paid the "missing" money back), due to being blackmailed by the PO with the threat of theft charges.
Last I heard blackmail was a criminal offence, surely someone could be held responsible for that and prosecuted.
It will be interesting to see the outcome of the public enquiry into the affair which resumed this week after their Christmas break.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

In any normal employment if you came across something that people had reported as being wrong/suspect virtually daily, wouldn't it occur to you that maybe something was actually wrong? It would to most intelligent people - why did it bypass Starmer, Vennels, Davey and co?

The independence of the judiciary? As someone pointed out on LBC this morning, that went out of the window with the parliamentary pardoning of IRA criminals.

 

[J-G]

Don't you think a thorough enquiry is in order?Otherwise we may observe all all of the blame landing with just one of the chain of CEOs and that may not be entirely reasonable.

Regrettably, thorough enquiries take time which essentially means money! --- and even if the result is 'positive' and culprits are named, they will seldom if ever really be held to account - ie. called upon to shoulder the cost of the enquiry.

 

[J-G]

It's a great TV drama, but how the PO were able to take staff to courts for prosecution without reference to the police or CPS is beyond belief, that's got to be changed.

It was mentioned by one of the legal team - to Jo IIRC - that that had been so for 300 years, and no doubt that was/is the case for 'Royal Mail' but in fact 'The Post Office' (in it's current guise) has only existed since 1st April 2012 (I wonder if there is any significance in that date? !!) This may also be a reason for the ITV programme ignoring events prior to this date.

 

[J-G]

I actually find it strange that most folk appear to lay the blame at the door of Fujitsu when they (Fujitsu) were merely contracted to provide Horizon by the customer who was The Post Office - whilst I have no doubt there were defects in what was delivered ultimately it is the customer i.e. The Post Office who agreed to accept this system as fit-for-purpose and who then allowed it to be rolled out.

Fujist were not 'merely contracted to provide Horizon' - they were/are also the operators of the system and, in that capacity, they were/are responsible for the day-to-day safe and accurate operation. They plainly failed and not only that, contributed to the whole debackle/cover-up in an attempt to secure further employment - which they are still enjoying!

To my mind they are culpable in the extreme.

 

[Thingybob]

It's always the same , Scandle reported , Who's to blame, Publish culprit, Apology from culprit , All's forgotten, except by those wronged
We are just gun fodder for those that think they are superior to us
TRUST NO ONE. Even AI Ho ho ho

 

[selectortone]

To my mind they are culpable in the extreme.

I agree. At one point in the TV programme a Fujitsu employee stated that several people in Fujitsu's secret vault were engaged for years in tapping into sub-postoffice computers nightly, making changes remotely and generally fire-fighting to keep the system afloat - while all the time insisting remote access was not possible. People at Fujitsu were lying through their teeth and at the very least they need to pay compensation, - which is being paid at the moment by the taxpayer.

 

[TRITON]

The people they should be going after is the developer of the system, the board of Fujitsu or those they can actually prove knew the system was flawed but still forced on the prosecutions. I dont think as yet blame to an individual can be attributed ,as least until the inquiry has released its findings.

Currently it looks more like damage limitation by the tory party

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, somewhere along the line it'll be the Tory party's fault.

 

[selectortone]

Yes, somewhere along the line it'll be the Tory party's fault.

Jacob's already blaming Keir Starmer over in the naughty forum

 

[Jacob]

Jacob's already blaming Keir Starmer over in the naughty forum

And others. The buck goes upwards - to CEO Vennels primarily, and to DPP Rodney. Many more down the chain of command.
1
“As DPP, Keir was responsible for all criminal prosecutions in England and Wales."
2
"....the largest miscarriage of justice in British history,"

3 years later before we hear the first few squeaks Sir Keir's selective responsibility He doesn't do empathy very well, or indignation, or anything for that matter!
He has brought the judiciary into disrepute and finally blown the myth of the "independence of judiciary"

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Yes, somewhere along the line it'll be the Tory party's fault.

The contract was let in 1996. Prosecutions too place between 2000 and 2014. I'm sure we can all draw balanced conclusions as to principal political responsibility.

The delays and apparent cover up in resolving the miscarriage are a separate issue.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The people they should be going after is the developer of the system, the board of Fujitsu or those they can actually prove knew the system was flawed but still forced on the prosecutions. I dont think as yet blame to an individual can be attributed ,as least until the inquiry has released its findings.

Currently it looks more like damage limitation by the tory party

It is the Post Office which initiated the prosecutions and needs to take responsibility.

The Post Office (I assume) would also have signed off on the software and are responsible for ensuring that it works as intended.

Fujitsu liability would arise only if they had either mislead the Post Office with performance claims not delivered, or non-contracted post implementation tampering with the system.

The real failure is within the Post Office - either the technical competence of those responsible for specifying, implementing and managing the system; or those responsible for governance failures which lead to the prosecution of the innocent.

Senior management and the board should be accountable for the appointment and appraisal of IT staff given responsibility for the system.

An enquiry needs to establish whether those responsible for governance (senior management, board, political masters) whether they:

• knowingly allowed prosecution to proceed despite explicit awareness of system flaws
• allowed prosecution to proceed having reasonable suspicion that there were issues
• were repeatedly assured by senior and operational management that all was in order