Bowl Centre Savers

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end seal or not?
when i rough out bowl blanks (which i dont do allot of) i always seal the end grain on the inside and outside of the piece- but not the whole piece- i have found walnut to be vey forgiving- but the batch i have used recently had been laying on the floor for a couple of years which may of made a diffrence. at least you are roughing them out at the perfect time of year.
Where are you storing them once roughed out?
keep an eye on the sapwood as woodworm love it :roll:
 
The roughed out blanks will be kept on the metal racking in the workshop George, you can see some of it in the background in some of the photos.

The workshop has a small oil filled elecric rad running all the time to keep the frost and rust at bay, but it's not hot by any stretch of the imagination, although I do turn on the fan heater to warm it up a bit when I'm in there for a session.

Guess that if in doubt, I'll put some end seal on the end grain just in case, would be gutted to lose some of these pieces.

Cheers, Paul :D
 
Hi Paul.

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest, hope you are going to continue posting about your use of the Kelton centre saver.

All I have used up to now is a home made copy of the 'Sorby slicer' which does leave a great deal to be desired in saving the centres of some nice pieces of timber.
 
After a busy day yesterday with Paul C finishing off preparing his last couple of walnut slabs for him, and then moving the next batch (for me this time :D ) from my trailer into the woodshed, I end-sealed all the logs that needed it this morning, and then managed to get some turning time in the workshop at last :shock: :roll:

Used the McN centre saver on the first walnut bowl blank that I had roughed out (see pics earlier in thread) and found it a whole lot easier in the wet wood than in the dry ash I had used previously.

What also helped was that I very lightly greased the mating and swivelling surfaces on the McN toolpost and this helped a lot in keeping movements fluid and smooth and stopped the jerking and grabbing that I had been getting.

The hollowing of this blank, which I think was about 10" by 5" went pretty quickly and easily and I ended up with the large bowl below, about 1" thick and a useful centre core for a second small bowl, the pic was after sealing though which is why they look all white

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Suitably encouraged I thought I would tackle the 12" x 6" monster blank which was really heavy. Mounted it on the 4" faceplate again with the same 4 coach screws.

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And brought up the tailstock just to make sure there were no surprises while I got the blank trued and balanced.

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After a few cuts with the gouge you can see the beatiful heartwood showing in contrast to the rough and sealed outer edge of the blank

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A few more cuts and a spigot formed for the chuck

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A fair pile of shavings :shock:

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Chuck fitted to spigot

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And mounted on the headstock and the faceplate removed

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Then I smoothed off the top of the blank to help avoid catches when starting with the McN and got started

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Found it trickier this time trying to get the angles of approach right to not leave the bottom too thick but not cut through either, should become easier with more practice.

Had to widen the kerf a fair bit in order to get the chosen cutter round at the right angle of approach, and it took a while, but got there in the end :D

The pic below is after tidying up the inside bottom a bit with a scraper as it was a little too thick compared to the walls which are about 1" again

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So one large 12" bowl roughed out and a second decent sized core about 9" x 4". Was too tired to try coring out the core :roll: but will probably get a further bowl plus a further small useable centre from that

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So impressions of the tool. Definately needs a bit of practice to become confident, and while I will use it on dry timber as well it is definately easier to use and learn using wet wood.

All in all, expensive, but if you use larger blanks and get through a fair few, it will pay for itself pretty quickly, and just as importantly, reduces waste of valuable natural resources, so very pleased with it all round :D

Cheers, Paul :D
 
Looking good, Paul 8) Surprised you had the energy after humping all that timber about yesterday :shock:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
Interesting and useful set of pictures,Paul - the centre saver might be expensive,but guess you must have saved more than it's cost compared to buying all that beautiful walnut :D

Andrew
 
Many thanks for a very interesting thread Paul. As with any new tool there is sure to be a learning curve, but you appear to be coping very well. After seeing the C Saver at work I am VERY interested now. May have to call on the ToolPost soon once I save up some of my pennies.

What I really thought was good was when you said you had to alter the cut to continue with the save. I wonder how many savers you can do that with?
 
I missed the origional posting of this because I was out of town. Bowl coring is a specialty of sorts for me. I have posted a bunch about this here in the US, and demonstrated at the 2006 AAW Symposium. I do turn a lot of bowls.

If you sell your work and you are turning bowls, then you need a bowl coring system. Core about 3 to 4 good sized blanks, and you have paid for your coring system. You do save time in removing the core, and when you turn the core, most of the shaping has been done, and you just have to clean it up. The piles of shavings don't seem to have been diminished. I save so much time that I turn a lot more bowls, so the piles seem to be bigger. You know it is time to clean up the shop when you have to get down on your knees to turn.

There are 3 systems out there. The McNaughton, the Woodcut, and the Oneway ( A Canadian lathe, but don't hear much mention of them over there, and they do make a nice lathe). My preference is for the McNaughton. The plus side of it is that it is the most versatile for coring plates, regular bowls, and deeper bowls/vessels. The down side is that the instructions that come with it are not easy to understand, and there is a big learning curve with the tool. It REALLY helps to have some one who knows how to use the tool to show you how to use it, or get a video. You also have to learn how to relax when using the tool. You don't have to force it, and if there is a lot of chattering, some thing is wrong. Most of the time, you have to remember to keep the cutter at or slightly above center height, and let the tool feed itself. There are 2 DVDs out there, one by Mike Mahoney, and one by me (which the Tool Post is carrying). KM also has a micro coring system that is made for the mini lathes.

The biggest problem with the McNaughton in using it is that as you core, the blade/cutter wants to drift to the outside of the cut, away from the planned path. You have to learn how to correct for it. You can come back to the top of the cut and open it up on either the outside, or inside. You can also bump the tool rest to the inside a bit. This is more of a problem with bigger bowls. I use one or two or all 3 methods to correct, depending on the bowl. The other problem is learning how to aim. Since it isn't on a fixed center, you have to aim. I do use the laser pointer which KM makes, and love it. If you don't have one, be prepared to make some lampshades/funnels. There is a lot more to it than that, but this is the simple version.

The Oneway is interesting. It is also the most expensive (about $800 US). It is a plate that bolts onto the ways of your lathe, and the tool mounts onto it. It is fixed center. There is a cutter blade, and a support finger. You core in about 2 inches, then advance the support finger under the blade. You do have to turn off the lathe to do this. For a big bowl, 18 inches or so, this may be done 5 times or so. The support finger makes the blade very stable when fully extended. They have an unusual cutter. It has a point that sticks out, to break the fibers, and then the sides remove the waste. The bad thing about this is that it that to sharpen it you have to remove it from the lathe and hold it up to the grinder wheel (you can buy a jig for doing this). You can only sharpen the top surface of it, not the face. You can adjust it a bit from side to side for flatter or deeper cuts, but if you go all the way to either side, the support finger can bind in the cut.

The Woodcut is a nice little system, the emphasis is on little. It is on a fixed center and is almost idiot proof (if you invent some thing that is idiot proof, then some one invents a better idiot). They have 2 blades, and it mounts in your banjo. I think the big blade is 6 inch radius. It isn't too much trouble to change blades, but you do have to handle and move both blades to change. One down side to me is that you have to attach your tailstock to the back of the set up for coring. I never use my tailstock when I turn bowls so this is an extra step for me. They do have a laser pointer for their tool. I don't really find it necessary. I set the tool up with my chuck on the lathe, and swing the cutter through the arc so that it is about 1/2 inch away from the chuck jaws. I them make a plywood spacer to put down on the lathe so I know the distance to put the tool and don't have to measure each time. I do this with the Oneway as well. There is some chatter with it, especially with harder woods, and if you are going as deep as it will go.

For your first efforts, use green wood as it cuts easier, and don't use wood that is hard or that is really special. For mounting, I prefer a recess, but a tenon works just as well. There is no mechanical advantage to either method as long as they are properly made. Mike shows how to form a tenon, I show how to form a recess. General rule here is that the foot of the bowl needs to be at least 1/4 of the diameter, and 1/3 is better. If you use a recess, the angle and diameter of the recess need to match as closely as possible the jaws of your chuck, and I usually go about 3/16 inch deep (sorry about the inches stuff, we are a bit slow about metrics here, and I never learned them well enough to use them). For mounting the bowl blank, I use a recess as well. I drill a recess using a big forstner bit that closely matches the chuck jaw diameter, about 1/4 inch deep. You don't want the chuck to bottom out so that the bowl sits on the face of the chuck. I have a dedicated compass for marking the diameter of the recess, and a specialized dove tail cutting tool. After turning the outside, and making the recess, I reverse it for coring. This way you never have to remove the chuck. With the Woodcut, you would have to remove a face plate for coring. With the other 2 systems, you can leave it on.

I do remove the biggest core first, then finish turn the bowl on the lathe before remounting the core. You can remove the smaller ones first if you want to, and they will still have to be remounted to turn a tenon or recess on for turning, but if there are any errors on figuring out how many blanks you can get from a blank, I would rather make the mistake on the smaller bowls, not on the larger ones.

Number of blanks you get depends on a few things, mostly on how good you are at cutting close. From a 6 inch blank, I will usually get 3 or 4 blanks. For production purposes, I seldom will core anything less than about 8 inches wide, and 3 inches thick. It is only really worth it if it is a special/rare/exotic piece of wood.

All of the coring systems have cutters that are about 3/8 inches wide. They cut like scrapers. If your lathe will remove a shaving that wide with a scraper, then it can handle most of the coring systems. 1 hp or more is usually recomended. The exception here is the mini and micro McNaughton blades. Their cutters are 1/4 inch wide on the mini, and slightly smaller on the micro. They work well for the smaller lathes. Coring speeds are from about 300 on big (18 inch diameter) bowls to 1000 on smaller ones. It depends on how well the bowl is balanced, and how comfortable you are. On smaller lathes, you do need to turn it up a bit. With the micro system, I tried a high torque slow speed, and the tool didn't work that well, went to mid range, and higher speed and it was fine. You have to experiment to see what works for you. Borrowing another quote from 'Patsfan' "When sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem."

For drying, that could be another DVD. I turn green to finish thickness (1/4 to 1/2 inch), and then dry. I love warped bowls. I do soak in 1/2 liquid dishwashing detergent, and half water for 24 hours minimum, remove and rinse, then dry. The soap (and denatured alcohol soak) does nothing measurable for helping the thin turned bowls dry faster, or with less movement or cracking. It may on the thick turned bowls. The soap does make the wood a LOT easier to sand out. For drying, I wrap a couple of pieces of newspaper on the outside and secure it to the rim of the bowl with some film plastic (6 inch wide that is used for wrapping around boxes to keep them on a pallet). I use a couple of wraps, and stretch it out so there is some pressure on the rim. I then cut out the paper on the inside of the bowl. The idea here is that the inside will dry faster than the outside and this pulls everything towards the inside and the bowl drys in a compression mode. I have done this with just the plastic on the outside rim, and have had great results, even with the most difficult woods like Pacific Madrone. Bowls take from one to two weeks to dry. I haven't tried this on thick turned bowls as I don't do that style, but probably should some day. It is also important to round over the edges on the rim of the bowl. The fine sharp edge is more prone to starting cracks than a round one, because it drys more evenly.

robo hippy
 
Paul Chapman":3o17vu9b said:
Looking good, Paul 8) Surprised you had the energy after humping all that timber about yesterday :shock:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

It was only because it was the last day of my hols Paul, so I forced myself to get on with it, otherwise would have been happy to collapse on the sofa for the day and recover :lol:

Also spent a while endsealing all those logs and then turning them over and doing the other ends, and that took a fair bit of effort too, but not worth leaving to chance and losing good timber through end splits.

Was just typing out a reply to you TEP when I saw Robo Hippy's posting and I think he has got the different systems well covered there !

I almost bought your dvd RH at the Toolpost but tossed a coin and went for the other one :oops: :shock: . Appreciate all your feedback and thoughts, very interesting and helpful indeed :D

Cheers, Paul :D
 
Paul.J":27a2d78d said:
Great post Paul,which as brought out some very interesting info on the savers.
Will we be seeing a piece finished :?:

Sure will Paul, but might be a while before the roughed out bowls are dry enough, probably a few months I think but we'll see how it goes :wink:

Cheers, Paul :D
 
Paul,
If I have to lose a sale to some one, I don't mind losing it to Mike. I have talked with him several times, and think he is a really good man and turner.

robo hippy
 
Well, finally got round to turning one of the roughed out walnut blanks today :D

Thought I would attach it to this earlier thread for continuity.

Haven't done any real turning for quite a while, mainly due to work and gardening and stuff, and also seem to have developed "turners block" for a while recently :roll: so was a bit rusty and tentative to start with but got back in to the flow quite quickly.

Wanted to keep a simple, functional shape and wall thickness, for use in the home rather than a decorative piece, so nothing fancy like some of you are doing these days :lol:

Finished size is 9" by 3" and finished in Cheshunt food safe finish with several soakings over a couple of hours. Shame the lighter parts of the wood weren't better balanced visually in the finished piece, but a lovely piece of timber all the same.

Very satisfying indeed, having helped Paul C dismember the tree (as per my avatar pic), converting it, coring it and seasoning it through to finished form, and thanks again to Paul C for the opportunity to get some great timber.

Still have the core from the middle of this one to do also at some stage when I can get back into the shop.

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Here's the original thread about the tree conversion also if interested to follow it from the start :roll: :lol:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ght=walnut

Cheers, Paul :D
 
Hey Paul, that looks really good 8) Nice to see something useful come out of all our efforts humping those logs about.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
So simple and yet so effective. A very gentle looking piece if that makes sense, it allows the wood to do all the talking. Love it.

pete
 
Walnut!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
and to think I'm going to have to suffer many more such outpourings from the North Hampshire hideaway.

As Pete says, simple smooth and lets the wood do the talking.
 
Thanks for the kind words guys, it's nice to share with a like minded crowd !

Wouldn't worry too much Chas, my productivity rate is pretty low, and I just have in mind some more of the same for a while, before I move onto some more adventurous pieces :wink:

Cheers, Paul :D
 
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