Bottled gas lines

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Kittyhawk

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This relates to the gas installation in my motorhome.
Basically, the gas line from the bottle and regulator to the hob/oven is about 6m long. The hob/stove is at the end of the run. About halfway along the gas line there is a tee and a branch gas pipe goes to the water boiler. This pipe would be about 2.5m long. The water boiler is new and it and it's predisessor will keep flaming out 4 - 5 times after starting, and then it will settle down and function normally. We use the water boiler as an 'on demand' appliance, only firing it up when we need hot water.
The only reason for the boiler flame outs that I can think of is that the gas flow to the hob/stove is partially evacuating the boiler line and causing air locks in it. I'm out of my depth with this gas stuff and don't know if this is even feasible. Advice appreciated.
 
You do not say if this is a professional build nor whether both appliances were in the vehicle from new.

What gas is it? What regulator is it?

If you read the specifications of the two devices, you will find gas demand numbers. You can then look at the diameter and length of the pipe in conjunction with the gas pressure and see if it is adequate for the demand.

With (low pressure) natural gas in the UK, the rule of thumb (good for 90% of standard cases without more detailed analysis) is 22mm diameter pipe to within 1m of the boiler to ensure the allowable pressure reduction is not exceeded.

LPG will have similar detailed rules and rules of thumb that work in most cases.

Put a non-return valve as close to the boiler branch of the tee as possible. Then if your theory about the stove is justified, it will cure it.

If each appliance works OK on its own, install separate pipes and supply each one off its own regulator and bottle. Complete independence.
 
Sounds like bad gas pressure if both the old and new one do it. It is possible to check your system pressure with a manometer yourself. That will tell you if the regulator is providing the right pressure, and then whether you have any leaks.
Once that's checked and ok it's on to testing the flame failure device and if that passes look at the pipework for anything that may constrict the flow, including bad joints on the tee junction

I'm not a gas engineer but this is from years of caravans and motorhomes and how we'd go through it with the workshop
 
It is a factory supplied professional installation, both appliances in the vehicle since new. The replacement water boiler is a Truma as was the original. Gas is LPG. Gas regulator is quite ancient and possibly should be renewed. Once the initial flame outs with the boiler are over, both appliances work faultless singly or in unison. Have soapy water checked all lines and connections for leaks.
The fact that I have to do 4 - 5 restarts of the boiler on start up is not a big problem. It's just a minor aggravation but annoying because I don't know why it does that. At start up it will usually run for a minute or two between flame outs, then settle down and run perfectly. There are no issues with the hob/oven.
 
To be honest there's some UK based manufacturers whose quality control on installations leaves a lot to be desired, but Truma stuff is normally good. Anything in the handbook about flame failure?
 
An update.
Current suspect for the flame out issue is the LPG regulator. Firstly it appears to be original equipment which would make it 12 years old - do these things have a life expectancy? Secondly I can see that the plastic cap over the regulator adjusting screw has been priced off a few times which would imply that the delivery pressure has been tinkered with.
The stove handbook does not state LPG pressure so assume that it's not too fussy. The Truma boiler asks for LPG at 30 mbar. Without knowing what else to do I fired up one burner on the stove and then turned on the boiler whereupon it worked without and flameouts. Once it was properly warmed up and running I shut down the stove burner and all ok with the boiler. Presume the pressure from the regulator is initially too high for the Truma?
Thank-you for the replies - I appreciate them and just wish I knew more about gas reticulation.
 
I'm out of my depth with this gas stuff and don't know if this is even feasible. Advice appreciated.
Do not get involved, take the vehicle to a specialist as there is more to Propane / Butane gas instalation than meets the eye. With poor install you can have issues with liquid in the lines or other issues that could effect safety.
 
UK recommendations are to replace the Flexi hose every 5 years, and the regulator every 10, so definitely worth it

Over here a decent regulator will set you back about £25, add an hour's labour somewhere you trust to do the job and you should be sorted
 
An update.
Current suspect for the flame out issue is the LPG regulator. Firstly it appears to be original equipment which would make it 12 years old - do these things have a life expectancy? Secondly I can see that the plastic cap over the regulator adjusting screw has been priced off a few times which would imply that the delivery pressure has been tinkered with.
The stove handbook does not state LPG pressure so assume that it's not too fussy. The Truma boiler asks for LPG at 30 mbar. Without knowing what else to do I fired up one burner on the stove and then turned on the boiler whereupon it worked without and flameouts. Once it was properly warmed up and running I shut down the stove burner and all ok with the boiler. Presume the pressure from the regulator is initially too high for the Truma?
Thank-you for the replies - I appreciate them and just wish I knew more about gas reticulation.
My opinion as an x b.gas engineer is to as @Spectric above says - take it to a specialist and get the entire installation checked . On a natural gas installation the meter govener is set to supply gas at a set pressure of 21 mb +/- 2 mb . With the correct pipe sizing this allows all appliances connected to function at the same time . I can not imagine that lpg gas set ups are any different. . You simply should not take the risk as if the pressure / regulator / or pipe sizes are wrong this in turn can cause incomplete combustion and can then produce high levels of c/o ☠️☠️☠️☠️ . Leave it to the pro,s and of course get a battery powered c/o alarm and install it 6” down from the ceiling away from any air vents . Talking about ventilation the professionals will ( should ) check that the ventilation is adequate for the combustion requirements.
 
Take it to the pro’s
Reasons
Live is short enough
Your insurance company could have a hissy fit and refuse to pay out if gas work was not done buy “certified pro’s”
Yep I am an old fa*t but have seen gas go wrong,
 
I agree, professional help is required, regulators fail, especially if the gas comes through a hose from the cylinder to the regulator, as solvents in it can leech plasticiser that ends up in the regulator sticking things together, total flow obstruction isn't unknown and has been a major problem in the UK, we gave up caravanning last year and knew quite a few others who'd had that problem.

In industry regulators are considered to be 'wear' items that should be replaced every 5 years according to BCGA 'guidance', something I did a lot of, those with 'rubber' diaphragms especially so, even the high spec £2,500:00+ all stainless, including the diaphragm's, ones should be changed on that time-scale.
 
Thank you for the replies.
I am going to replace the regulator which hopefully will correct the issue and if not, on age it should be replaced anyway.
Concerning my motorhome, it is a NZ designed and built Kea which is highly regarded in the industry both here and internationally for its build quality. All the joinery and its electrical, plumbing, gas and sanitation systems look to be well installed. Obviously though, not every worker on the production line is a qualified gas fitter, electrician, joiner or plumber - I suspect that there is just one qualified person in each trade with the responsibility of 'signing off' each build and inevitably, shoddy workmanship will occur and slip through the pre-delivery check.
For this reason I have little faith in 'professional installations.'
I realize that this is getting off topic - sorry.
The worker who initially installed my failed Truma water heater probably did so in an hour or two. It took me two days to install the identical replacement, mainly because Truma issue a very precise installation guide which I followed to the letter/millimeter. The original installation was more or less ok but not perfect, probably driven by the foreman telling the worker to 'come on, get a move on, you should have finished that by now.' And the end result of this 'professional installation' was that it failed due to insufficient sealant around the external bedding plate which allowed water to enter and rust out the boiler.
The next issue with the truck was with the diff. Any vehicle I buy secondhand, I like to drain the engine, gearbox and differential oil to see that just oil comes out, no other nasty stuff. An oil change had only recently been done by a professional heavy vehicle service centre. The diff is drained by removing the back cover, held on by 8 bolts and one of the first things you need to know are the bolt torque settings. Removing the bolts it was obvious that no torque wrench had been anywhere near the diff, in fact one hard to get at bolt at the top of the assembly was only finger tight.
House wiring. I moved a few 3 pin outlets and the work had to be signed off by an electrician, which he did. He commented that I should have just let the electricians do the work because with him coming out to sign if off I was saving next to nothing. I had some other sockets open so told him to look at the original installations vs mine. He didnt see any difference so I reminded him that the electrical regulations state that where a wire is terminated to a screw termination, not more than 1mm of bare copper may be exposed between the sheathing and the termination. Mine complied, the others didn't whereupon he left in a bit of a huff.
And the final piece de resistance, I decided to renew the water main from the street to the house and this entailed digging a 51m trench which seemed like a good idea at the time but really not so much as being only a few weeks short of 80, it nearly killed me. Seeing a heap of blue alkathene coiled up a passing plumber stopped to have a nosey. ' New house main?' He asked. 'Yep' ''But why did you go so deep?' 'It the regulations. 50cm deep but 60cm where under vehicular traffic.' 'Is it?' he replied, genuinely surprised.
And that's why I dont have much faith in professionals. I procured a copy of the gasfitters regulations for mobile applications and everything is as it should be in the motorhome except for one bend in the copper pipe that is under the minimum radius, but only by the smallest fraction. I am not saying that this diy stuff is for everybody, but if you are handy with tools and have the ones neccessary , do the research for thd job in hand (which includes asking here)and abide by the regulations, you should be able to approach these jobs with a well founded confidence. Also on your side - you're doing it for yourself so you are more likely to ensure it's done properly. But a disclaimer. Here in NZ we can do almost anything provided it is signed off by the relevant authority. And consider - what is better? A gas job done by an amateur that has to be examined and signed off as being fit for purpose or a job done by a 'professional' which is automatically compliant by virtue of the fact that he qualified maybe 20 years ago, is out of date in his work practices and hates his job anyway...
 

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