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I stand by what I wrote.

Doubled-up cells can't work any better than larger individual cells. There are a lot of reasons, for example the internal resistance, and the overall weight and energy density, as to why bigger individual cells will be far better.

And the chemistry determines the voltage, as I said.
 
Eric The Viking":2xle4qmf said:
I stand by what I wrote.

Doubled-up cells can't work any better than larger individual cells. There are a lot of reasons, for example the internal resistance, and the overall weight and energy density, as to why bigger individual cells will be far better.

And the chemistry determines the voltage, as I said.


All major manufacturers are currently using 18650 cells thats a fact. Either you know what you are talking about or you go research it if you want to make a contribution. But dont give a people a list if your assumptions
 
You're missing the point, and you're subtly changing your argument. Using cells in parallel is not a good idea, BUT it saves a lot in power tool manufacturing if, as manufacturer, you only buy one size of cell. The objective is usually "good enough to sell well" rather than "the best approach". They're doing it for commercial reasons.

You made comments about cells in parallel increasing the available voltage, which I responded to (it's not possible), now you're saying they "increase the power of the tool", which is possible (if the limiting factor is the battery's internal resistance).

There's one thing I said at the bottom of my original post which was ambiguous. To clarify: two 2Ah cells in parallel won't deliver more than one 4Ah cell. Or at least they shouldn't, if the 4Ah cell is properly designed for high current output (which you'd hope for a power tool). It comes down to the cells' internal resistances and that of the connections.

I take your point about 18650 cells being ubiquitous. I don't know the reason for this (although I can guess, below, and anyway there's probably more than one reason). Lithium Ion cells are much harder to manage than older chemistries, and presumably harder to make, too. For the cell manufacturers it's undoubtedly better to have one, really high-volume production line running (six-sigma'n'all), rather than several of lower volume.

It is also lower cost for tool manufacturers to only use one size of cell; any JIT-type materials management process would actually make this more important, because the buffer stock works for several lines at once, so the cost is shared (in theory). I don't work in manufacturing any more and can't easily guess, but it is probably significant.

Using cells in parallel remains a sub-optimal solution. The penalties are poorer energy density (than bigger cells suitable for the application), increased weight in comparision to bigger cells, and reduced cell/battery life, both charge-to-discharge and overall lifespan (if they are charged or used in parallel). I think there's a slight increased hazard too with Lithium Ion, as they can behave badly when worn out or abused.*

Of course, if larger, high-current cells actually aren't available, manufacturers can't use them. But that doesn't change the fact they would be a far better solution.

Regards,

E.

PS: if you think I'm cynical about tool manufacturers, you're right. It's very unusual indeed to find mass market tools where significant compromises aren't made. I have three generations of cordless of the same brand, and each one had looser tolerances in the main shaft than the one before. The current 10.8V one is by far the worst.

*my nephew recently had his mobile phone swapped-out smartish by the store - the battery had swollen up and was distorting the display. I understand at that point it was fairly likely to start behaving really badly, had he gone on trying to get charge into it. He was happy with the 'good service', obviously, and blissfully unaware of the downside risk (as was his mum!).
 
OK lets put this beast to bed. A 2Ah battery has the same number of cells as a 3,4 or 5Ah battery. It is the physical size of the cell that changes, higher capacity cells being bigger. The only time you find a differing number of cells is for different voltage battery packs. For example, a 12v battery has 10 cells, a 14.4v battery has 12 cells, an 18v pack has 15, etc.
 
MMUK":6p21zjdt said:
OK lets put this beast to bed. A 2Ah battery has the same number of cells as a 3,4 or 5Ah battery. It is the physical size of the cell that changes, higher capacity cells being bigger. The only time you find a differing number of cells is for different voltage battery packs. For example, a 12v battery has 10 cells, a 14.4v battery has 12 cells, an 18v pack has 15, etc.


This is completely wrong. We are talking about li-ion tools that all use 18650 cells

Its possible to have a 5 cell 18v 3.4 ah pack because you do get up to 3600mah 18650 cells but as far as im aware Theres no manufacturer doing that because they cant get reliable high current discharge from them.

Anyway 2ah batts are 5 cell, 4ah 10 cells thats a fact! How do i know... Because ive replaced these cells myself in my own tools..


Eric you are getting closer but ive never changed my argument

I stand by what i said. As soon as you start to discharge the batterys the voltage drops in these batterys theres some clever cell management going on to split the load and avoid damage to single cells. Therefore the peak voltage a 10 cell can supply is more than a 5 cell..

Anyway eric im not sure why they are used but suspect its just a case of economy of scale and saving money on development as 18650 cells have been used for a long time in the electronics industry especially in laptops and the likes
 
Well before this all gets too heated (sorry!), the info that EtV and MMUK have already posted accords exactly with everything I've ever learnt about batteries - i.e. the number of "cells" changes ONLY to produce a higher output voltage and NEVER to produce a higher Amp-Hour rating.

The only thing that changes when increasing the A/H rating of a particular battery is it's physical size, although I do understand that this can also be done by adding cells to make what is apparently a single cell from its outside appearance. But ALL chemical cells - i.e. LiOn (of which there are a large number of different chemistries); NiMHyd; and NiCad ALL produce 1.2 volts each, the only exception being lead-acid chemical "wet" cells (e.g. car batteries) which produce 2 Volts per cell.

To get 10.8 V or 18 V or whatever you need simply involves multiples of 1.2 (or 2) Volt cells, regardless of the A/H rating of the final pack. That is achieved ONLY by increasing the surface area of the plates (lead-acid cells) or the amount of chemical/plate area (physical size) of the LiOns, etc..

Of course, battery technology is evolving at a very fast pace, so you, Alexfn, MAY know something different/more up to date than the above.

But IF that is the case Sir, I would appreciate it if you would correct me in a rather more polite tone that you have used to correct EtV above - and WITH your info source listed too please (i.e. not just "on YouTube" - I understand you can get instructions on making your own bombs on there too)!!

AES
 
AES":2e3ce8ra said:
Well before this all gets too heated (sorry!), the info that EtV and MMUK have already posted accords exactly with everything I've ever learnt about batteries - i.e. the number of "cells" changes ONLY to produce a higher output voltage and NEVER to produce a higher Amp-Hour rating.

The only thing that changes when increasing the A/H rating of a particular battery is it's physical size, although I do understand that this can also be done by adding cells to make what is apparently a single cell from its outside appearance. But ALL chemical cells - i.e. LiOn (of which there are a large number of different chemistries); NiMHyd; and NiCad ALL produce 1.2 volts each, the only exception being lead-acid chemical "wet" cells (e.g. car batteries) which produce 2 Volts per cell.

To get 10.8 V or 18 V or whatever you need simply involves multiples of 1.2 (or 2) Volt cells, regardless of the A/H rating of the final pack. That is achieved ONLY by increasing the surface area of the plates (lead-acid cells) or the amount of chemical/plate area (physical size) of the LiOns, etc..

Of course, battery technology is evolving at a very fast pace, so you, Alexfn, MAY know something different/more up to date than the above.

But IF that is the case Sir, I would appreciate it if you would correct me in a rather more polite tone that you have used to correct EtV above - and WITH your info source listed too please (i.e. not just "on YouTube" - I understand you can get instructions on making your own bombs on there too)!!

AES


18650 cells charge to 4.2 volts..

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/article ... orial.html


Believe it or not the same 18650 cells used in power tools were used by tesla to build electric cars.
 
AES, before you get snarky with Alex who seems well-informed, perhaps start here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... od_battery

And then taking on board the standardised mass manufactured cells, read on taking in the series/parallel stuff and noting the possibility for arrays which deliver parallel current paths.

Your understanding used to be right, but tech has moved on.
 
@Alexfn and Jake:

Thank you both for the links. I have read both and must say I have learnt something new - as I suggested, battery technology HAS indeed moved on, and I apologise for doubting you Alex.

Regarding getting "snarky", at risk of turning this part of the thread into little more than a playground squabble ("He started it Sir"), I would point out that if Alex had simply first posted that link instead of just wildly accusing Eric the Viking of "spending more time writing than researching" and then backing that "snarky" claim up with a vague reference to "several videos on Youtube" we would all have been wiser, and that WITHOUT that unnecessary unpleasantness.

As they say over here "It's the tone that makes the music"!

AES
 
"And Tesla has had battery fires," he said, quietly.

FWIW, I read up on Lithium-ion chemistry/technology ages ago. I like to know about the insides of the tools I have and the technology I use. I've worked in high-tech all my adult life (apart from very recently).

Lithium-ion cells are relatively difficult to make, difficult to deploy safely (compared to earlier types of cell), and pretty environmentally unfriendly. To do the parallel cell thing you have to do even more cell matching than normal with other chemistries, and it IS more likely to fail as cells age (because they're not used identically in that situation, especially in automotive applications). There are several Wikipedia paragraphs on the current Tesla arrangements. That one is fairly concise. Note the last sentence: "The liquid-cooled battery pack uses an intumescent gel to aid in fireproofing and even heat distribution." Tesla only succeed in this approach because they modularize - building the big battery from individually-managed modular batteries, and the management system has to be complex and comprehensive.

Regarding voltage, all types of cells fluctuate between fully charged and safe (recoverable) levels of discharge. Lead-acid cells are nominally 2V, but at full charge (the level at which minimal sulphonation takes place and electrolysis is just starting, a healthy cell measures around 2.2-2.3V on float (trickle) charge; 1.95V when recoverably discharged.

2V is used as a number because it's the voltage you design-to when using the cells. So at 12V (6 cells), and using an appropriate power drain characteristic for the battery design, you get the power delivery life specified by the manufacturer, and can say "It lasts x hours/minutes on one charge". If you used 2.2V as the standard, your "battery life" between charges would be measured in seconds (it's the capacitance effect rather than electrochemistry, I suspect, that allows the higher voltage to stay when the charger is switched off).

Lithium-ion cells may well reach 4V when fully charged, but nominally range from 3.3V to 3.7V (as lead-acid are 2V). The fact you can get to 4V is irrelevant - you can't design a practical circuit to take advantage of this (except perhaps in a rail gun in the tropics!). Here's a telling graph:

Note the temperature sensitivity - the voltage drops off very dramatically with temperature decrease. And it makes it clear: 3.7V is present at roughly 50% cell capacity at room temp (interpolated, and for the design illustrated). I picked that specific graph because the temperature drop-off is severe and illustrates the point well. There's other good stuff on that page.

This reminds me a great deal of the way manufacturers started to rate audio amplifiers, mainly for the car audio market (it later crept into home HiFi specs too). For decades, amps were measured by the power they could dump into 8 Ohms resistive load, and very occasionally 4 Ohms (2 Ohms for valve amps - I'm old enough!). The main reason for 8 Ohms was that it allowed the speaker manufacturers some leeway in drive unit and crossover designs (XY, are you out there? :) ).

That de-facto standard was simple and allowed easy, objective comparisons, BUT... it also requires meaty power rails in the amp to overcome the 8 Ohms (current squared times resistance). There's only 12V available for car amplifiers' power rails using simple designs, and that means a practical limit of 36W RMS per amp channel at 4 Ohms).

You can't beat physics! But you can lie, so we got "Peak Mean Power Output" (whatever that means) and sometimes just "Peak" power output. But since 72W RMS in a car is LOUD, the punters were/are none the wiser (and anyway the enthusiasts use 2 Ohm speakers, bridging modes and really heavy speaker cable to get round the issue).*

Using 4V/cell to give the number to put on your kit is just like the "pick a number" approach of the car audio spivs. I'd treat any manufacturer doing it with suspicion.

And finally, quoting Tesla's use of commodity cells is all very well: everyone else using Lithium Ion in high power applications (including Boeing, admittedly with problems too) uses bigger cells and much simpler battery designs. Tesla does gain some really useful things from the approach, odd-shaped battery packs being probably the most important, along with commodity pricing, but they need very complex battery management.

E.

*And of course, you can put in voltage doubling power supplies, etc (the good stuff has this), but it isn't cheap. My point was about basically lying about the numbers, not the actual designs.
 
Mentioning tesla and the fact they charge to 4.2v was nothing more than throwing in some trivia. I refered to them as 3.7v cells previously

Why didnt i link to to sources? Because in this day and age anyone can google something for themselves.

Anyway... One down one to go.. Eric are you going to admit you were wrong on this or not?
 
Eric The Viking":hvv2nqok said:
This reminds me a great deal of the way manufacturers started to rate audio amplifiers, mainly for the car audio market (it later crept into home HiFi specs too). For decades, amps were measured by the power they could dump into 8 Ohms resistive load, and very occasionally 4 Ohms (2 Ohms for valve amps - I'm old enough!). The main reason for 8 Ohms was that it allowed the speaker manufacturers some leeway in drive unit and crossover designs (XY, are you out there? :) ).

By the time I landed in HiFi design, the domestic side of the industry was guided by 'DIN' standards these suggested 6 Ohms as a loudspeaker impedance. Certainly bass units were generally 6 Ohms, nominal, although trebles dropped to 5 ish. All power tests I was involved in setting up were set up at 6 Ohm load, great big glossy green resistors, getting quite warm.

Eric The Viking":hvv2nqok said:
That de-facto standard was simple and allowed easy, objective comparisons, BUT... it also requires meaty power rails in the amp to overcome the 8 Ohms (current squared times resistance). There's only 12V available for car amplifiers' power rails using simple designs, and that means a practical limit of 36W RMS per amp channel at 4 Ohms).

I had to refresh my memory on this, I think you may have forgotten to convert peak voltage to RMS. By my reconing 12V pk-pk is 8.5V RMS, squared and divided by 4 Ohms this gives only 18 W, true RMS power.

The chemical analysis of various battery types is beyond me I'm afraid.

xy
 
Eric The Viking":3buquf6c said:
Tired of trying to hit a moving target...

Nothing from my original statement has changed.

You said it broke the laws of physics. What it broke was your current understanding of battery tech.
 
Just an update on my original post which seems such a long time ago when you attempt to read all the rest!
Impact driver arrived and works a treat with my 2AH batteries. That was all I really wanted to know.
 
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