Blister has a few questions , and something to ask

[SPinonit]

I would prefer a For Sale forum, the Australian forum one works quite smoothly. (members with 50 posts only) Comments re the item for sale should be restricted to PMs. Otherwise it is a form of bumping.

When I first noticed the forum, I wondered why there was no 'For Sale' or 'Classifieds' index, since a lot of stuff was appearing in various areas and apart from the chance of missing good items, it seemed very messy and clutered up the topic-specific discussion areas. I think you would need to place a post limit for access to insert ads, otherwise you will get random commercial companies or fly-by-nights, or even worse scammers, posting ads all over the place. The trouble with that, is that some unscrupulous people can very quickly run up 50 or so useless posts and still insert their ads. Those additional 50 posts then just clutter up the boards elsewhere and the situation does not improve. I think classifieds should be strongly modded, but I've never seen any issue with Blister's posts - I've always found them quite interesting and great if another board member gets a good deal.

My othe forum also has a 'Geeks area' where people can get help on non-related topics, such as computers or plumbing etc. I thonk having just one 'General Discussion' board may create more problems than it solves, although I'mnot involved in modding, so I do not know how difficult they are to administer and this may be easier said than done.

Since I've joined and [hopefully] started contributing, I have found it even more desirable to have a seperate area. I'm a member of another forum that has a classified board/index/forum and it contains all sorts of for sale or wanted ads. It really works well and you never usually see the sometimes provocative comments that appear here.

One of the big issues with electronic communications, is that you cannot read the body-language of the person involved in a discussion. They may say something in and include an emoticon that makes sense/seems approprpriate to them, but which is taken completely out of context by a.n.other. Somethin like 80% of the meaning/intention within a message is infered via body-language. If that part is missing, then it is all the more likely that there will be fractious posts and disagreements.

The other forum (non-woodworking) also has a seperate 'Foo' area where people can discuss just about anything (non-political) without fear of reprisal - something this board appears to be seeing more often. A few caveats should apply, namely that personal attacks in any form should not be allowed. When entering this area, forum users are/could be reminded that the area is the least modded and that users should be at least respectful.

The final point I wanted to make, was that behind all of our online IDs, we are all anonymous to the vast majority. It makes it easy for some people to snipe.

When I joined the board, I was increasiingly of the opinion that there was a deliberate ploy to disrupt the board and to cause unrest. I have discussed this in person with another member, who agreed they had the same impression.

I'm afraid that I cannot understand why people cannot just get along and allow people to belong to whichever boards, or to have whatever interests they so desire, without the need to comment. A very kind and wise friend of mine, once commented that I "did not need to have a comment about everything" - meaning that whilst it was perfectly valid for me to have an opinion, it was not always wise nor useful to air it. Since taking that advice, I have had far less arguments with fellow commuters and work colleagues and I think I am feeling more contented too.

I joined the board to grow and to learn as a woodwork enthusiast, not to use it as an opportunity to make pointless comments on other's activities. If I don't like it, I [try to] just stay away and make no comment.

My 10p worth (IMHO, FWIW,etc etc :wink: :roll: :lol: )

 

[Mattty]

Edit-

 

[OldWood]

I cannot now remember the full details - was it a For Sale thread or something else - but I did get involved with Blister over some careless wording in a thread about a year ago, and I was struck by his demand to see things his way. My personal feeling is that he is being too sensitive and unwilling to accept another person's opinion.

My advice is to accept that anyone doing a For Sale is putting up information into a public environment which has a response capability, and just to accept that these responses will occur.

My vote is for a For Sale forum.

 

[thomvic]

Wow!!!
Some of you guys are just too sensitive. That someone should post something you don't like or don't agree with is not at all important. It is what happens on forums. Forget it, move on. Life is much better if you don't spend a lot of it moaning.

Richard

 

[RobertMP]

I help moderate on talkphotography. It is a much bigger forum than this one with lots of sections and an active for sale section. 90+% of the moderation work is in policing the for sale section. There are lots of rules but all of them are common sense things such as are getting mentioned in this thread.

Moderators can only do so much on a forum. Creating sections etc falls into the realm of the site owners/admin. This UKW forum seems very resistant to change and expansion which may mean the owner is not involved with it that much. It may be the owner wants a small manageable forum and lack of change is designed to keep it that way. Whatever the reasons behind it the sensible option for us members here is to suggest things but also accept that this free resource belongs to someone else and just make the most of what is provided.

 

[MickCheese]

I would hate for there not to be for sale threads. I have bought a few things through these threads and been very pleased with my purchase.

I take the view that I may pay a little more than ebay but I have more confidence that the item I have purchased is honestly described and a genuine sale. ebay is a bit of a gamble.

I am quite a laid back character, I have noticed this forum can get very bitchy at times not just on the For Sale thread. I just ignore them and move on.

A few times I have typed a response only to delete it before posting as I had nothing really useful to say once I re-read it.

I don't think stating you could get something cheaper elsewhere is necessarily negative, at the end of the day it is for the buyer to satisfy themselves they are paying a price they are happy with.

I say, keep posting, I enjoy reading what is for sale, it maybe something I need, (actually I don't need anything I just love shiny tools).

Have a nice day

Mick

 

[Doctor]

How do people find the time to write posts this long, Ohh I forgot Blisters job is part time :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[promhandicam]

By far the easiest way of solving one of the issues would be to have a dedicated Classified Advertisements forum with guidelines similar to these taken from the Pentax User forum that I'm a member of:

A place to put your for private sales and wanted camera adverts. Please only use this for Pentax related equipment. Any non photo adverts or trade ads will be deleted"

Please remember this is a place for the adverts and for the replies to the adverts. Posts that list other non-Pentax gear or that stray from the purpose of the section will be deleted.

Having a dedicated Classified Ads forum would, I think, make life easier for the moderators as everything would be in one place. However as this change would need to be implement by the forum owner / administrator, I doubt that it will happen.

The only other issue, perhaps, would be to define what are private sales and what constitute business. Here is some guidance in relation to online selling:

If you qualify as a non-trader, this means you are not buying and selling goods online with the intention of making a profit," says the guide from HM Revenue and Customs. "Are you selling unwanted presents? Do you occasionally sell personal items, such as old vinyl records or a sofa?"

"As long as you are not buying goods with the intention of selling them at a profit, you are not regarded as a trader," it says. "This means you do not have to notify us and declare the income on your tax return."

Some people will qualify as e-traders, though, according to the guidance. "You are trading if: you sell goods that you bought for resale; you make items yourself and sell them, intending to make a profit; you sell or buy goods for other people and receive money for this (for example on commission), or you provide a service and receive payment (in cash or in kind)," says the guide.

"If you are trading online you will be regarded as self-employed for this trade and you must register with us and possibly complete a tax return," it says.

IMHO, the majority of people offering items for sale here would not be considered as traders as they are selling tools or equipment that they no longer use or are surplus to requirements. However there are members here who do buy and sell for profit and most appear to have decided not usually to advertise items for sale on the forum as it would be against the spirit of the forum. I personally think that it is this grey area when someone crosses the line between non-trader and trader that is a point of contention. If I were in this position, I would be less concerned with comments from forum members than I would be comments from Her Majesties Inspectors for Revenue and Customs. I guess that as things stand, the moderators have to make that call as unsurprisingly the forum rules are rather vague on this point.

Steve

 

[Argee]

However there are members here who do buy and sell for profit and most appear to have decided not usually to advertise items for sale on the forum as it would be against the spirit of the forum. I personally think that it is this grey area when someone crosses the line between non-trader and trader that is a point of contention. If I were in this position, I would be less concerned with comments from forum members than I would be comments from Her Majesties Inspectors for Revenue and Customs.

Very well summarised, Steve, thank you. I believe that the amount and frequency of items offered for sale is the acid test of "trading" and - given that the age of philanthropy is dead - it's fair to assume that the sales are for profit. If they're only of stuff "not needed," why else were they purchased in the first place, if not to sell on?

Ray

 

[Jake]

However there are members here who do buy and sell for profit and most appear to have decided not usually to advertise items for sale on the forum as it would be against the spirit of the forum. I personally think that it is this grey area when someone crosses the line between non-trader and trader that is a point of contention. If I were in this position, I would be less concerned with comments from forum members than I would be comments from Her Majesties Inspectors for Revenue and Customs.

Very well summarised, Steve, thank you. I believe that the amount and frequency of items offered for sale is the acid test of "trading" and - given that the age of philanthropy is dead - it's fair to assume that the sales are for profit. If they're only of stuff "not needed," why else were they purchased in the first place, if not to sell on?

Well put. I'd add price to that as an obvious indicator of purpose.

 

[Imperial]

I was one of the 2 mentioned at the beginning, don't know who the other one was? I don't object to any "genuine" for sale threads, but do object to people going round the country ( as was stated in the last thread) buying up tools in sales then selling them here claiming its not a business, no matter what the personal circumstances are in their private life!

The seller "Blister" does not mention this in any ads I have seen in the past and members may be under the impression he used these tools and has some idea of the past life of them. This info has come from personal experience of one of his sales in the past. This is a step too far IMO! Sure we all want to sell unwanted items, but I line has to be drawn at some point, especially somebody who only seems to post items for sale with the very odd post to pretending to be contributing. I'm sure we'd all like some cost free advertising here.

Claiming the persons prices are too high is another matter and big no no, this has been done to me on a thread I posted to sell a LN plane and by one of the mods, I just removed the post and sold it for the asking price elsewhere. Criting the item for sale is a different matter and if the seller cant hack that then don't post it for sale here, go to ebay or another forum etc.

As far as I'm aware you cannot advertise on here for free? is this correct or is it just ebay links that are not allowed, clarification is required along with some totally clear rules, no grey areas or favours for certain high posting members :?

 

[matt]

But, if you're in the market to buy something, who gives a monkey's fanny whether someone is a trader or not?

1. Want lathe.
2. Lathe for sale.
3. Buy lathe.

Versus...

1. Want lathe.
2. Lathe for sale.
3. It's being sold by a trader.
4. Don't buy lathe because it's being sold by a trader. :? (Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face maybe?)

Sounds to me as if too many people are getting too caught up in other people's business and the actual running of the forum and making this so much more complicated than it needs to be.

I would also draw a distinction between the spirit of the forum, the rules, and actions of those that enforce the rules... The "spirit" to me is largely shaped by the membership which, in turn, is massaged by the enforcement of rules, but the latter is sensibly adapted to reflect the spirit of the forum. So, in this case, the majority of the membership has stated that they're happy with the for sales, so it's not necessary to go digging around to find reason to apply the rules (least not to satisfy the minority).

 

[OldWood]

If they're only of stuff "not needed," why else were they purchased in the first place, if not to sell on?

Ray

That is not realistic - I won a lot of wood off Ebay at a price that really was a bargain; I put in a price that was way below it's market value not expecting to win; but there's more material than I want, so I'm going to sell it on. Does that count as trading and for profit ?

OK not a normal situation but deals occasionally fall on our plates where there are items we don't want - Blister starting selling on that basis.

OW

 

[Jake]

So, in this case, the majority of the membership has stated that they're happy with the for sales, so it's not necessary to go digging around to find reason to apply the rules (least not to satisfy the minority).

I don't think that there are many people at all who disagree with that (and the poll on the last thread supports that). The issue isn't whether Blister can sell on here at all - that's a complete red herring. The issue is whether his contentious demands that there are no (adverse) comments on his threads are legitimate (and hence whether the aggressive minority who always wade in to support such censorship are justified).

 

[Imperial]

Being one of the minority, Matt, I still have an opinion to voice if you like it or not! and am not cutting of my nose for anyone!

I simply want to know what I'm buying and from who, makes a big difference IMO? Looks like the post is heading the same way as the last one did, which Blister also started, then when it got some negative comments the personal stuff started!

 

[jeffinfrance]

hey, we're in a public place.

i guess if we want to put ourselves out in public, some won't like or appreciate what we are trying to do.

one downside to online forums, is that over 50% of communication is visble.

language in itself can be threatening or appear offensive to hear without the non threateneing body language.

dont take things too personally i guess.

jeff

 

[matt]

Being one of the minority, Matt, I still have an opinion to voice if you like it or not! and am not cutting of my nose for anyone!

I simply want to know what I'm buying and from who, makes a big difference IMO? Looks like the post is heading the same way as the last one did, which Blister also started, then when it got some negative comments the personal stuff started!

It's only personal if you perceive yourself to be the person that the comments are directed to or someone actually used your name or quoted you. Your 2+2 is wrong - I was still writing my post when you posted so did not even see your post...

With regard to what you're buying - I'd assume the description and pictures in a for sale thread help with that one. From whom... which do you prefer - trader or non-trader?

Also... I don't think I said anything that could be perceived as wishing to dissuade you from expressing your opinion :? I tend not to take things personally so quite prepared to accept that I've hit a nerve unintentionally while expressing my views.

Oh, and the point about cutting off one's nose... It's not really meant as a request that you conduct such an act for someone else.

 

[Benchwayze]

I'll just say that most of us are aware of eBay, and other such sites. We don't need reminding.

However, one thing you can't guarantee anywhere is trust, and a pukka deal. But I would sooner trust the members of this forum, than some sellers on eBay.

In the end, if someone is offering something I need or want, at a price I am prepared to pay, (or haggle over) then I pitch in with an offer.

If I don't have any interest in a sale, I don't see anything wrong with commenting positively if I know the vendor, and/or the item for sale.

Conversely it isn't my business to tell a vendor that he or she is asking too much. Anyone who feels that's the case and wants to make an offer, should do so in private.

Normally we try to help one another here and long may it be so.

So carry on Blister...

That's my few penn'orth
Regards
John

 

[Tom K]

However there are members here who do buy and sell for profit and most appear to have decided not usually to advertise items for sale on the forum as it would be against the spirit of the forum. I personally think that it is this grey area when someone crosses the line between non-trader and trader that is a point of contention. If I were in this position, I would be less concerned with comments from forum members than I would be comments from Her Majesties Inspectors for Revenue and Customs.

Very well summarised, Steve, thank you. I believe that the amount and frequency of items offered for sale is the acid test of "trading" and - given that the age of philanthropy is dead - it's fair to assume that the sales are for profit. If they're only of stuff "not needed," why else were they purchased in the first place, if not to sell on?

Ray

So is the indignation caused by posting items for sale on the forum or are members concerned about HMG not getting its cut? Pretty sure if you discount the tools he sold that were his Dads and the stuff he accumulated to start "Flatwork" and his upgrades (Wizer buys most of those) you are left with the 3 maybe 4 joblots he has bought. Of these I believe they all included some large item or other that he actually wanted for instance his VB lathe I'm sure even the revenue would allow him to offset some of the cost of collecting the items so I would say their pickings would be fairly slim.

 

[Imperial]

Matt,

1. Aye right
2. If the description is true and correct and knowing who I was dealing with, a dealer or a private individual.
3. "Who gives a Monkey's fanny", would cover that !
4. Does not require an answer, for obvious reasons...

After the last time this ugly subject reared its head I took a break from the forum, looks like another one is required. I've met so many nice people via this forum and become friends with some , but its not worth all the aggravation posting comments when it always seems to get personal rather than factual.