Blade adaptors for 10 inch Wadkin AGS 10?

[Megaweasel]

Hi everyone - AGS 10 restoration is going very well - actually much better than I expected with my ham-fisted engineering and painting skills. I didn't do a full restoration blog as there are several of those - much better than I'd be able to do, but here’s the traditional before/after photos:

Quite a way to go yet - need to sort out the top and the fence. The good news, despite the alarming burn mark on the front is that the machine was in great condition. no cracks or breaks and the two machined quadrants look like new. I believe it spent its life in an RAF training facility. Other than purchase cost and transportation, I've spent on the motor (see other thread) for which I got a great deal on eBay on a new TEC motor, and I also got a local engineering company to sort out the arbor so it runs correctly, and also got it refitted into the spindle housing as that was far too stiff for me to get the bearings in. Whereas before it was out by about .2 of a mm, its now less than 0.05 (tested with a dial gauge). New bearings and new bushes, new belts (also see other thread) mean it should give me years of service. Here's where I got to so far before the top goes on:

I need to fix the knobs for the handles as the top rims are broken, and it was missing its name plate which I've managed to get from eBay for 6 quid! Needs painting though. Haven't decide to use the old switch gear or stump up for a new one - they don't look as nice but I'll assess the safety of the old one first.

I'm viewing this as a 'resto-mod' type of thing - I want it to be as good - if not better than a modern cabinet saw. For anyone considering this, I've spent £350 on the saw, £200 on transport (went and got it with a van), £90 on the motor and postage, £125 on engineering and approx £50 on bearings, belts, bushes etc - so around £800 so far although you could probably remove the £200 transport if you got it delivered. I think once the Fence is done, I should be at around £900 - possibly just over as the mitre gauge is a bit crap and I think it deserves better.

so to my question - I need a nice new quality blade or two. I like the Axcaliber blades and there is a good offer on a combined set at the moment: Axcaliber Premium Saw Blade Package but its 30mm bore. They also have a 30mm to 5/8 adaptor - will this work? is it going to be a compromise? If it is, where can I get a similar premium blade or two with a 5/8th bore. I've used these and CMT blades with the anti-ringing laser cutouts and have found them to be great (the old bent blade fitted in the picture makes a right old racket when I tested the motor/measured the speed).

bonus question (Deema?? Sideways??) : bits left over - what is this? I took it off and I painted it - no idea what it is or where it came from . Really should have taken more pictures...

Cheers!
Chris

 

[Fitzroy]

It's looking great! the bore adaptors are fine they just hold the blade central, they won't effect runout as that is determined by the arbour face. I use Freud blades as I find them a good balance of cost and performance. I have the older AGS10 so can only run a 10" blade, I think yours is the later model and you can use a 12" blade for a deeper cut, although it will not fully drop below the table then.

PS: No idea on the spare part, although it looks familiar I can't see it on the parts diagram of either old or new saw. Yours is a transition model, you have the old fence but new motor mouting assembly.
Old Saw
New Saw

 

[Noel]

I’ve been using reducers on my TS for a very long time and no issues. Mostly 30mm and others down to 5/8ths.
Some reducers sit nice and snug in the blade, others are a tad loose So care needs to be taken when fitting the blade.
I’ve been using Freud and CMT blades but recently tried Saxon and have to say, quite impressed. Much better value than the example you mentioned.
Your TS is looking well, great restoration.

 

[SLM]

Looking good! Yet another example of an old machine that represents far better value than a new one.

 

[Hornbeam]

I had a Wadkin AGS and had the same problem with blade bore sizes.
A friend of mine machined me a new external support washer with a 2mm step at 30mmm OD. This meant that by switching the flange washer I could use blades with a 30mm bore. This worked very well but the tolereances for fit onto the shaft and fit into the bore of the blade were very accurately machined to reduce vertical run out. Not really a big issue unless cutting some joints

 

[ChaiLatte]

Haven't decide to use the old switch gear or stump up for a new one - they don't look as nice but I'll assess the safety of the old one first.

It is possible to convert the old switchgear to low voltage operation (using a 24v power supply) and do the high voltage stuff with a modern contactor hidden inside somewhere.

 

[Megaweasel]

It is possible to convert the old switchgear to low voltage operation (using a 24v power supply) and do the high voltage stuff with a modern contactor hidden inside somewhere.

I like the idea of that - specifically using 24v meaning i could (safely) retain the existing switches - probably with a bit butchery of the existing starter, whereas using them at 240v for latching a contractor might be a bit suspect. If I get a contactor with 24v coil, are there specific modules to provide the latching 24v circuit or am i going to need to create something?

cheers

Chris

 

[ChaiLatte]

...are there specific modules to provide the latching 24v circuit or am i going to need to create something...

I do not know the answer to your question but maybe the following is food for thought.

Every modern piece of machinery uses low voltage control circuits. Maybe someone like Axminster or Jet or Grizzly in US would have wiring diagrams in their manuals which could help. The higher end manufacturers (Felder, etc.) might also have good wiring diagrams. My guess is that a low voltage contactor might be two pole: one pole for the high current and another low current pole for the latching.

A big supplier of contactors is Schneider Electric. Their catalogue would give the 'pin out' of any specific contactor and might include example circuits.

RS and CPC have datasheets on everything they sell and their filter system is reasonably intuitive to narrow down a search.

DIN rail stuff is a standard mounting configuration and you can buy the 24v transformer in DIN mount as well.

In principle, the circuit would look like Fig. 2 here:

http://www.claydons.org/public-html/elec/contactor.htm

 

[Vann]

It is possible to convert the old switchgear to low voltage operation (using a 24v power supply) and do the high voltage stuff with a modern contactor hidden inside somewhere.

I reuse the old switchgear on all my old Wadkins. It's usually very well built and will almost certainly outlast anything modern.

I do check out everything to make sure it's still safe (not as safe as modern gear - tbough probably safer if I ran into it with a forklift) and refurbish the case at the same time.

I also replace modern bright orange conduit.
Bright conduit and modern switchgear just doesn't look right on my vintage machines.

I'd add a few photos but my desktop (where I keep all my photos) is playing up.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Spectric]

You could get the existing contactor checked as they were very well made and see if it is still servicable before going down the other routes. The important checks are wiring to ensure the insulation is ok and the contactor contacts are not burned or pitted and that everything is correctly earthed, especially as the switch casings in them days were metal and not plastic.

 

[Vann]

I'd add a few photos but my desktop (where I keep all my photos) is playing up.

I have the desktop working again.

Here's my 1928 Preston Woodworking Machinery Co. - Canada (also sold in UK as Wadkin FF), bandsaw. As bought.

And with original (actually 1960s replacement) refurbished switchgear. Crabtree B-15 DOL starter, and MEM 315 isolating switch. Also new (old) metal conduit to replace the garish orange PVC conduit that was fitted ~1987.

And here (below), my 1926 Wadkin & Co. RB 9" surface planer, with refurbished MEM AutoMemota, Series 3, 24AD, DOL starter (from 1940s/50s), and co-incidentally the same MEM 315 isolating switch (from 1960s). Also new (old) metal conduit to replace original metal conduit.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[deema]

The low voltage circuit is extremely easy to create, starters are wired to latch. However, if you need to ask how to do it I suspect your not a qualified electrician. If you aren’t, don’t mess with the electrons. They kill without warning if you get it wrong.

 

[Megaweasel]

Thanks for the warning - very sensible and sorry if I made myself look like an ***** - I'm ok with electrical planning and installation and importantly know how to test (did my Part-P before re-wiring my old cottage sometime back -its also been independently inspected so don't fret..) I have lots of experience of home automation design and installation which is why I might have added a bit of confusion as I made an assumption of 24V 'DC' when musing over contactors and got quite exited about it as that is normally used for control panel stuff with logic holding the contactor closed. I and went of on a bit of a flight of fancy (integration with extractor / automatic routing of blast gates etc..). Hey ho..

As an investigation as suggested by chaiLatte I looked around the workshop at how my kit is wired. I've got a Record C26 universal which has three motors and does use a transformer for the coil, but its 110V. Interestingly, the contactor on it did die about a year ago and I had to replace it. I've also got a Laguna Cflux extractor which has no contactor - it has a custom circuit board to handle the on/off/wireless control - so not a lot of help there. I looked at the diagram for the current Axminster planer/thicknesser and yep - transformer to 24V AC and a contactor. Most of the aftermarket or pre-packaged starters are 240v coils - with or without overload protection.

Anyhow, I was hoping to replace the old frame from the starter but utilise the existing switches - so keeping it looking the same but getting a modern contactor and more importantly overload protection in there. In reality, this is not going to be viable as the switches on the front are just sprung buttons onto the frame and the frame is too large to keep while installing the new components.

So I'm planning on effectively fitting a 'modern' contactor and overload protection relay into the existing case, with new switches to replace the old sprung buttons - either in the existing plastic switch plate or in a new 3D printed or cast resin plate. I'll probably do it with a 240V coil as space is a bit limited to get the transformer in there - along with what tends to be quite a lot of wiring.

I'll report back with some photos once its done if anyone is interested.

cheers for the comments and help on this..

Chris

 

[Milfordvet]

I bought an AGS 10/12 about 2 years ago, and it’s in the cue for a full resto like yours.

Swedex make direct fit saw blades for the Wadkin AGS.

I bought a 300mm x 24t rip blade with a 5/8” centerbore (22BA39) and a 255 x 40t universal rip and cross cut blade 5/8” centerbore (10BA19). The bores are factory cut to imperial 5/8”. They are a stock item.

They were £60 each plus vat, 2 years ago. I’ve not had them on yet as i’ve been finishing other projects (a boat). Not the cheapest but Swedex are supposed to be very good. They have a UK shop/ distributor.

 

[Megaweasel]

can't believe it's been three months since discussing the AGS restoration - specifically the replacement of the starter. Thought now its actually running , I'd add an update as it might be useful to someone bitten by the Walking AGS bug.

Problem I had was I needed some sort of DOL Starter but as I'd swapped the three-phase motor for a single-phase one, the existing MEM starter wasn't suitable as its the 415 V frame. 240V replacements suddenly seemed really expensive - at least when I was looking for one. I really wanted to keep the 'vintage' look - its just looks right. I looked for a contactor that would fit inside the old MEM box and while they would fit - just about - they don't fit with the over-current device fitted. The over-current devices typically are designed to plug in under the contactor making the whole thing too long. I thought about adapting one to sit side-by-side but its not going to be a good idea to modify one of these as it would mean quite a lot of changes that would definitely invalidate any guarantees.

This all started when I was asking about modifying the existing switches to use with a modern contactor. Wasn't till I took it apart that I realised the switches on the old frames (the green and red buttons in the black shroud on the front of the box) are purely mechanical so quite hard to adapt - or so I thought.

I got got some of these switches from Amazon for a test and discovered that they are modular. The buttons can be removed, as can the middle housing (allows simple fitting of the button itself to the outside of an enclosure after switch unit is screwed through from the backside) leaving just the switch part. Each switch has an NO and an NC push button- one of which could be made to line up with the mehcanical MEM switch. As the switch part is symmetrical, you can decide if you want an NO or an NC button to mate with the MEM switches (clue - you need one of each..) A Simple 3D printed joiner that connects to the switch and that also fits the the old MEM frame and I've solved my switch problem

To solve the getting the contactor into the original box - I was going to get an ugly plastic box and mount it inside the lower saw frame and simply put the modified switches in the old case, wired as auxiliary switches - relatively easy to do with the modern contactors but would mean drilling a new hole in the steel base of the saw. In the end, I managed to find a larger, but still nice looking MEM box on eBay for not much. Cut a hole for the switches, fitted a bit of DIN rail, bit of paint and job done. Looks a bit large but I think it has the right effect:

Inside showing the modern contactor and over-current device:

this is on the bench - before the feed and the motor are wired in. Its also before I set the over-current. You do need to be confident in what you are doing and shouldn't attempt this if you don't have a good idea of how this all works so I'm not going to discuss how its wired. Plenty of resources for those that heed the warnings and remain curious and confident (refer to Deema's post above however). I Should probably remove the old wiring diagram for safety but I like it.. Perhaps I'll stick a replacement over it - just in case I do pass the saw on some time. I've gone with a contactor with a fairly standard 240V coil (rather than the 24V discussed earlier. Much cheaper this way and fits in the case easier. This is a 'keenly-priced' contactor and over-current from Screwfix so easy to find.


I've also taken the time to add a dust shroud. Pretty much based on This excellent video from Hew & Awe on YouTube but with a few mods. I made it as a stand-alone shroud that fits front and back - using the holes for the original dust deflector thing which is (I guess) supposed to keep some saw dust off the tilt worm gear and a hole at the top-rear which I think is used for a splitter if you have an earlier saw that doesn't have the riving knife mechanism. I made the same sort of port as in the video, but used 65mm rain water parts which makes it a bit of an issue to get flexible hosing - although I found some from a company that sells rain water diverter systems. I'll need to 3D print a 100mm to 65mm adaptor - probably with a Y to fit to the blade guard (haven't got that far yet though)

here it is in place, with the front cover on

Its a really tight squeeze to get something to fit in there that doesn't foul when either tilted or when raised/lowered. Takes a lot of fitting-removing-shaping-fitting etc. Its open at the bottom at the moment and once the tables on, I'll look at closing it (it needs a gap to allow the blade to sink below).


anyway - progress, which is why my Record Power C26 Universal Machine is up for sale (shameless plug..) - I need the room before I can put the table on.