Big thank you to Peter Millard

[artie]

Recently I splashed out on a £25 lidl vacuum. I wanted it to suck up the dust coming off the top of the blade on my table saw.
I keep the vacuum switched on and plug it and the saw into a double adapter and then plug this into the wall socket.

When the saw was needed I switched on the wall socket which fires up the vacuum, then I switch on the saw. Works well.
When finished, I switch off the wall plug, everything stops.
Pretty handy. huh?

Until I watched a Peter Millard video on utube where he introduced me to the intelliplug which is designed to switch off peripheral items attached to a TV or PC but is rated high enough to handle a table saw and vacuum and can be bought for about £7 including delivery.
So now one switch does it all.

How lazy can you get?

 

[Cabinetman]

That’s not lazy Artie, that’s an intelligent use of time. But it got me thinking, my tablesaw and P/T are single phase and my whacking great dust extraction system is three-phase, I have to turn them both on and then turn them both off.
It would be wonderful if the extraction system came on automatically. Ian

 

[artie]

That’s not lazy Artie, that’s an intelligent use of time. But it got me thinking, my tablesaw and P/T are single phase and my whacking great dust extraction system is three-phase, I have to turn them both on and then turn them both off.
It would be wonderful if the extraction system came on automatically. Ian

I know nothing about 3 phase, so this may be a daft suggestion.
Could a single phase relay be used to kick in the 3 phase extractor?

 

[Cabinetman]

Well I suppose it could, like a big solenoid / relay switch, not a bad idea I shall have to look into that. Cheers Ian

 

[petermillard]

Until I watched a Peter Millard video on utube where he introduced me to the intelliplug which is designed to switch off peripheral items attached to a TV or PC but is rated high enough to handle a table saw and vacuum and can be bought for about £7 including delivery.
So now one switch does it all.

How lazy can you get?

That’s an older vid, impressed you can still get them as a few folks have said they’re hard to find. Great feedback though, and good to hear these older vids can still be of help.

cheers, Peter

 

[RobinBHM]

That’s not lazy Artie, that’s an intelligent use of time. But it got me thinking, my tablesaw and P/T are single phase and my whacking great dust extraction system is three-phase, I have to turn them both on and then turn them both off.
It would be wonderful if the extraction system came on automatically. Ian

That is possible, but not a cheap solution.

I have seen auto switching for 3 phase, can't remember where now, but it's a few hundred pounds

 

[HamsterJam]

I know nothing about 3 phase, so this may be a daft suggestion.
Could a single phase relay be used to kick in the 3 phase extractor?

Yes - definitely.
you will need a suitable three phase contactor which can be controlled with your single phase relay.
indeed, if you can find a 3-phase contactor with a 240v coil, you can probably even use the smart plug mentioned above to pull in the contactor.

Depending on the extractor you my need to modify or bypass the NVR

Disclaimer: This is mains electricity (at up to 415v with 3-phase) so treat it with respect and consult a qualified electrician.

 

[HamsterJam]

Yes - definitely.
you will need a suitable three phase contactor which can be controlled with your single phase relay.
indeed, if you can find a 3-phase contactor with a 240v coil, you can probably even use the smart plug mentioned above to pull in the contactor.

Depending on the extractor you my need to modify or bypass the NVR

Disclaimer: This is mains electricity (at up to 415v with 3-phase) so treat it with respect and consult a qualified electrician.

further thought...
a 3-phase extraction system is likely to take a little time to come up to speed which will add a delay between the machinery being started and the extraction becoming effective.

 

[Cabinetman]

further thought...
a 3-phase extraction system is likely to take a little time to come up to speed which will add a delay between the machinery being started and the extraction becoming effective.

Thanks hamster jam, yes will look into that, the extractor only takes a second to be fully operational so I don’t think I’m going to have any problems on that score, and I have a huge cable coming into my workshop so nothing will trip as they both come on together. Cheers

 

[NetBlindPaul]

It is quite easy for a competent person to get the singe phase machinery to start the 3 phase LEV.
You can use the machine contactors/starter to start the LEV.
For a DIY set up, then it is no worry as there is no legislation.
However, for a workplace, it would fall under the safety legislation to ensure that it is fail-safe, and therefore it is slightly more complex, and the person doing the work (if an outside contractor) needs to be suitably insured and competent for that work, as it would class as a safety function.
It could also be done by taking additional "signals" from the start buttons on the machines to send a momentary signal to the LEV, just like pressing the start button on the LEV itself does.
It just needs a few suitable contactors in a box and some wiring, depending on the design of the LEV you might not even get involved with the 3ph, or perhaps just 2 of the 3.
One of the big electrical hazards in doing this is you will need to isolate the machines in more than one place once this is done to ensure that there is no voltage on the controls as you will be interlinking the start/stop system of multiple machines and thus they would all need to be off to ensure that no voltage could appear in them.
It can be done with as little as 3 cores to each machine from the LEV, plus a circuit protective conductor.
And yes, for my sins I do know what I am doing when it comes to this, but I'm not very good with the woodworking itself!

 

[Chris70]

A picture's worth a thousand words - here's a snapshot of a typical contactor with clearly marked terminals, where the three phases would be wired on Terminals L1+T1, L2+T2 and L3+T3. Here, the contactor is energised with a 240v 'feed' on coil Terminals A1+A2. This particular contactor has a 'normally open [NO]' auxiliary contact which, if used, would be wired on Terminals 13+14. Other contactor configurations come with a 'normally closed [NC]' auxiliary contact, or even a 'changeover' auxiliary contact, where you can choose which auxiliary Terminals you wire. I hope this is more helpful than confusing. But don't be messing with 415v unless you know what you're doing. Get a 'sparks'! Chris

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks net blind Paul and Chris 70, it does appear that it’s doable then, but no don’t worry I certainly won’t be getting my fingers in there! Thanks again Ian

 

[Eric The Viking]

There is another excellent argument for doing this:

Problem:
the cheap remotes have a small, single relay usually rated at about 10 amps. But that rating is for a resistive load, which motors are not. The inductance of the motor causes voltage spikes ("back EMF") on switch off, which in turn causes sparking across the relay, and, when it's used close to its limit with inductive loads, will cause early failure. I've had a couple of the receiver units die this way, when used regularly with shop vacuums. Yes, there is spark suppression in the unit, but they usually weren't intended to handle full load if that's inductive.

Possible solution:
Contactors are intended to cope with inductive loads. The relay current (used to energise-de-energise the contactor, the "A" connections above) is small, so if that is driven by a "remote" receiver, the receiver's own relay carries very little current , and should last for ages. The contactor Chris mentions above ought to be effective in a single phase application as well as three phase, too*.

I've got a fairly chunky motor on my Delta extractor. Presently it's usually operated remotely by broom-handle (or walking stick or some thin offcut, whatever), but I've been intending to remote it for ages. This has reminded me that using a contactor would be a very sensible idea.

I am presently hopping about on one leg, after a nasty injury and cellulitis to t'other one. It's jolly boring, so after I've tided the Augean stable mess of paperwork, etc., that is my study (don't ask!), that might be a good next project. If so I'll write it up.

E.

*I did look at relays for this a while back, but wasn't comfortable that what I found was suitable.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I bought these -
https://cpc.farnell.com/energenie/ener002-3/3-x-rc-socketscontroller/dp/PL13022
My compressor according to the ratings plate is 10.2amps and it works ok on it. It blew a 10amp one as I didn't realise the rating was so high and didn't check.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Those are very similar to the system I have (Maplins!). I was intending just to move receiver electronics into the NVR housing but that is impractical. If I am having to do it properly, I will look for a contactor or motor control relay to do the heavy current part...

 

[artie]

FYI the intelliplug has expired. Probably not up to long term use.

 

[petermillard]

FYI the intelliplug has expired. Probably not up to long term use.

That’s disappointing, though as I think I said at the start I haven’t seen them around for a while; I wonder if the more recent ones were made to different standards. Pretty sure I still have the one I used in the video knocking around, happy to send it to you if I can dig it out?

Message me Your address if you’re interested, OK?
cheers, P

 

[artie]

Message me Your address if you’re interested, OK?
cheers, P

That's very kind Peter, but I've ordered up parts to make a current activated switch which will hopefully do the trick as well as keeping me out of mischief for an evening.

ATB

 

[Setch]

I've used one of thesethese make my Karcher vac auto start. I ordered two and my dead used second to make a double socket with slave/master function on a fly lead.

https://www.conrad.com/p/kemo-m103n-master-slave-switch-component-230-v-ac-1091973
They work very well, rated to 16 amps, and with instructions for single phase and 3 phase use.

I ordered from the Dutch website, and had a friend in Amsterdam import it, but they're also available from their uk site and Amazon, though at a higher ( but still reasonable) price.

 

[pe2dave]

I've used one of thesethese make my Karcher vac auto start. I ordered two and my dead used second to make a double socket with slave/master function on a fly lead.

https://www.conrad.com/p/kemo-m103n-master-slave-switch-component-230-v-ac-1091973
They work very well, rated to 16 amps, and with instructions for single phase and 3 phase use.

I ordered from the Dutch website, and had a friend in Amsterdam import it, but they're also available from their uk site and Amazon, though at a higher ( but still reasonable) price.

Amazon have it, but ... a tad more expensive!