Beware the cheats!

[Jacob]

...
so my future looks bleak, but then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work
£25 profit in materials, but no way you could sell 10 a day let alone 1, so I know I cant even begin to make a retirement plan....

You wouldn't just make coasters you'd just do the odd run in between a thousand other projects.
But on the other hand if coasters really turn you on maybe you could just make them alone and sell them on the web. I've seen quite a few sites which sell only one or two simple things. Most extreme was an ebay seller selling "guitar strap locks" which were basically beer bottle washers for Grolsch type bottles, available for home brewers. As far as I know he didn't sell anything else. He had many thousands of sales. They work really well!

 

[custard]

then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work

Hey, everyone makes their own decisions about how they want to live their own lives, and it's not my place to pass judgement on anyone else's plans, but that really doesn't sound much like life-enhancing craft work to me. In fact banging out endless coasters sounds more like the worst kind of factory drudgery.

My guess is that if you were to find a way of making that business plan work then you'd spend six months congratulating yourself on being free from the shackles of your current job, followed by the rest of your life wondering why on earth you gave up a secure job for mindless, repetitive coaster production!

 

[Jacob]

Dunno don't be so hasty!
I've done massively repetitive work (toy making - wood, cloth, paint etc) and it has a strange satisfaction all of it's own.
The same sort of satisfaction that a potter must get when opening a kiln full of perfect copies, or a baker with an oven full of identical pies!
No mystery here, it's how a lot of things are made.
Do you think printers get bored after the first one off? There are even craft printers using expensive papers, old presses, woodblocks etc who would get great satisfaction if the 1000th came out well.
Nearly all crafts involve repetition.
Emphasis on the unique one-off is relatively rare and, as woodbrains has convincingly explained at great length, a miserable and unsatisfactory business model.
If it's any good it's stupid just to make one - just keep churning them out, they get better, easier to produce, all parts of the process get improved, material supplies etc. gradual approach to perfection!

 

[Woodmatt]

I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.

 

[MikeJhn]

Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.

Mike

 

[Jacob]

I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.

You either become an importer yourself or you make something which can't be imported.

 

[woodbrains]

I know of a pretty upmarket retailer with a fairly large chain of stores who had a chair that they paid an English company to make for them and it cost them £164 and it retailed at around £315.That same chair is now being made for them in Indonisia and they pay £32 including shipping. How can uk manufacturers compete with that and who is the cheat there.

You either become an importer yourself or you make something which can't be imported.

Hello,

They'll import everything sooner or later. Even bespoke joinery is already and no doubt that will only increase. The import the cheap labour to fit it too.

Mike.

 

[Beau]

There are still people out there prepared to pay what it costs to get custom made furniture. I may have given it up but not because of lack of demand. Almost everything that left my workshop was a one off and would have gone stir crazy long ago if making just a few things over and over again. Jacob we are not all wired the same

 

[custard]

but if you are using high quality timbers, then your commissions are swallowed by timber costs, so still not a worthy profit

That isn't strictly true Steve. There's an anomaly in the timber market that means I pay less per cubic foot for boards of heavily rippled Black Walnut like this,

than rubbish Black Walnut like this,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Walnut- ... SwiONYPvMV

Thirty or forty years I can remember at least three or four UK veneer mills just within my small sphere of awareness, so across the entire country there must have been many more. Today there isn't a single specialised veneer mill anywhere in the UK. So that means when a rare and fantastic log arrives at a UK mill they either have to gather up quite a few to entice over a continental buyer from the veneer trade, or they just shrug their shoulders and treat it as normal timber. These heavily figured boards are no good to the volume timber buyers, they need bland stuff that looks like the samples in their timber flooring catalogues or on their office furniture web sites. Yes, there's a market for luthier timber, but I've got a theory (it's no more than a theory so if someone knows better I'm open to changing my mind!) that the pipeline for luthier timber is absolutely stuffed to the gunwales and the absolute volume that gets sold through and ends up in a musical instrument is nugatory. Net result is that the capacity of the luthier trade to absorb more timber isn't actually all that great.

The other factor is that, apart from Oak, hardly any hardwood is graded in this country. So (rough pricing here) Sweet Chestnut is £40 a cubic foot, Oak is £50, Cherry is £60, Walnut is £80, etc. However, as a natural material there's a massive quality range in wood, but out there in the real market there's relatively little price distinction between say a dog rough board of grey Sycamore that's full of shakes and sticker marks, and a breathtaking board of bright white Sycamore with sparkling ripple figure running clear across from edge to edge.

It makes no sense to me, but I'm happy to dive in and exploit this market anomaly. Consequently I can find enough veneer or musical instrument grade timber as solid boards to offer clients spectacular and unique pieces of furniture that they'll never ever find on the high street. I often encourage prospective clients to look at the Heal's Furniture web site,

https://www.heals.com/furniture.html?gc ... oCMGnw_wcB

I tell them I'll make something equivalent, but it will built to a far higher standard, from unique and spectacular timbers, you can decide on sizing and stylistic detailing, and it will cost you only a little bit more than you'd spend at Heals.

Hey, I certainly haven't got all the answers, after all I'm still not consistently hitting that £1000 a week target, but at least i'm getting close enough to keep trying!

 

[Jacob]

...

They'll import everything sooner or later. Even bespoke joinery is already and no doubt that will only increase. The import the cheap labour to fit it too.

Mike.

So you do what I did i.e. something the importers couldn't possibly do. I specialised in "period" joinery i.e. perfect replication or repair of old stuff. Loads of work out there, never ran out. There was a brief moment once when I was sweeping the floor and I suddenly realised I hadn't got another job on. Just then the phone rang!
Not that I got rich BTW :roll:

 

[MikeJhn]

Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.

Mike

To carry on from this and to take up Custard's point, the twenty seven doors in the larger house where all book matched Walnut veneer on either side of a corridor, they did this buy buying up all the veneer that was available in the UK at the time causing a shortage, I am sure Custard will remember it happening.

Mike

 

[custard]

the twenty seven doors in the larger house where all book matched Walnut veneer on either side of a corridor, they did this buy buying up all the veneer that was available in the UK at the time causing a shortage, I am sure Custard will remember it happening.

Mike

Mike, I suspect that's a bit of an urban myth. We may not have any veneer mills left in this country, but Capital Crispin in London are still one of the world's premier veneer wholesalers,

https://www.capitalcrispin.com

They could supply that quantity of book matched Walnut veneer from stock without breaking into a sweat.

The problem a maker has is that just being able to buy luscious veneers doesn't solve their problems. They need matching solid stock for legs and lippings. Consequently I'll often use veneers, but I saw them myself from solid boards and so can produce a piece of furniture that's "all of a whole".

 

[MikeJhn]

Have to admit I did not check my source of information, which was the building companies own bespoke joinery shop that made the three meter high doors.

Mike

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Indeed, timber costs have the smallest relevance in the cost of a bespoke product. It is primarily the makers time.

Once made a walnut chair that got many admiring comments, TBH it was only OK not my best work, it wasn't as comfy as I'd hoped, but it looked pretty. I was trying to break something out quick, so development wasn't as good as it should have been. Anyway, one fellow wanted the chair, but, as always didn't want to pay the asking price. Now it is in everybody's head that hardwood is expensive and that was where he thought the high cost was coming from. 'What could you make it from, to make it cheaper' he demanded. 'Well' I said, 'it will take exactly the same time to make if I did it in this Yellow Poplar, and save you maybe 50 quid, but when I spend an extra day to stain and polish it to look like walnut, It will need to be 150 more expensive' I still don't think he ever understood why that was the case. I was always undercharging anyway, he probably missed a bargain if he had have just bought it. The thing is, people will not let go of their preconceived ideas of value and the cost of the things we make.

Mike.

 

[custard]

Incidentally, when a veneer mill cuts a log there's a hefty chunk of the log that's left over at the end, the piece that was fastened in the cutters jaws. UK veneer mills would often scrap these pieces, which were thick boards of absolutely dazzling timber. I used to give the foreman a bottle of scotch or a carton of cigarettes and load up all I wanted.

Those were the days!

 

[MikeJhn]

When I lived in shoe box in middle of motorway............................ :wink:

Mike

 

[woodbrains]

When I lived in shoe box in middle of motorway............................ :wink:

Mike

Hello,

Bloody luxury!

Mike. (Other Mike.)

 

[Mr T]

Hi Custard

I don't suppose you could divulge exactly where you source your timber by any chance?!!

Just before I retired I was involved with a house building project in the most exclusive road in Hampstead, Not Bishops Avenue, the existing property was bought for nine million pounds, two house's where built on the footprint, one sold for twenty five million and the other more substantial house sold for sixty seven million, the point of this is the furniture used to dress these properties for sale, on inspecting the lager property the prospective buyer said he liked the furniture and asked how much for it all, he was told seven million, he promptly replied I will take that as well, to put this into perspective the glass chandelier hanging in the stair atrium was priced at seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, so the money is out there and people are prepared to pay for what they like, I just wonder if he would have paid that for a house dressed with antiques, I doubt it, we live in a contemporary world.

Unfortanately I think this only happens on once in a blue moon Mike.

Chris

 

[SteveF]

Hi Custard

I don't suppose you could divulge exactly where you source your timber by any chance?!!



I would also like to know that answer
I am sure I would be of zero threat to your supply
as could probably afford to buy 1 or 2 boards a year for my hobby interests

Steve

 

[custard]

There's only one or two secret sources, most are common knowledge. The tricks are persistence and turning up in person.

The best source for African timbers in the UK is Kevin at Surrey Timbers, the best source for South American and Asian timbers is Bob at Timberline (ideally located for you Steve), both also get lots of other interesting stuff, but very little of it ever makes it onto their web sites. Yandles is usually worth a visit, they stockpile for their open days so aim to go a little before those dates. None of these are particularly cheap, but all are easy places for the hobbyist to visit. And in any event, if you're going to sink a couple of hundred hours of precious free time into making a family heirloom then why would the price of the timber be of the slightest consequence?

If you're a bit more knowledgeable you should definitely go to Tylers and English Woodlands Timber, you may have to get your face known to be steered towards the really good stuff, and possibly buy in slightly larger quantities, but they will regularly have exceptional boards in stock. Both get flitches rejected by flooring manufacturers because they're too highly figured and both have sky high reputations for the quality of their kilning.

If you're looking for Elm or the whitest and best Rippled Sycamore (or ultra clean Douglas Fir which is increasingly becoming a desirable furniture timber) then you'll probably do best to visit some of the Scottish yards, it's usually a treasure hunt of following up leads as they won't all have everything all the time, but they gossip amongst themselves so if the wood is there someone will know about it. Scottish Wood in Dunfermline is a good place to start or there are some great little yards around Dunkeld.

The very best of the old favourites; the Rosewoods, Satinwoods, Ebonies, and Spanish Mahoganies for example; often came from antique restorers who were retiring and selling up their stock. But they've largely gone now, plus CITES and changing consumer tastes means the door's largely closed. Anyhow it's time to let those species recuperate, so much as I enjoyed working with them we should probably all just move on. I'll use what I've got but I'm not replacing.

Most of my Tiger Oak, Rippled Ash, and clean Yew comes from smaller mills in the South East, some of them don't even have a phone number let alone a web site, but ask around and you'll find these tiny mills are everywhere, there's nothing particular special about the ones I use apart from the fact that they're local to me. You'll view dozens of flitches before you find a decent one, but then it'll be pure magic and the price will be no different from mediocre stuff. The best English Walnut generally comes from France or Italy and is found at the big yards, but occasionally a smaller mill will have a specimen Walnut boule, that unfortunately will unlikely to be a bargain but it's always worth looking. One great thing about smaller timber mills is they source locally, and from a commercial perspective it's great to be able to tell clients exactly what field their sideboard grew in!

Then there are the "specials" that some enterprising individual will import and shop around. At the moment there's a load of Burmese Teak salvaged from a freighter that was sunk by a U-Boat in the Irish sea, I've seen some of these boards and the best of them is as fresh as the day they were loaded and big enough for a fourteen seat dining table from a single board. In fact there's quite a bit of previously submerged and abandoned but now salvaged timber becoming available, Moss & Co usually have some interesting examples. If you're interested in timber with a back story then just ask around, timber yards all gossip so everyone knows who's currently got what.

The main thing is to get out there in person, to look and to talk, and to avoid getting up the yard's nose by not having a clue what you want or haggling over a gift horse. It's also worth remembering that stock is constantly turning over, ideally you want to get to the position where a yard will call you when something interesting is arriving. More realistically you'll have to put your time in by visiting local yards regularly, so you're there in the week or two after a quality delivery and before it's been picked over too many times. That's not really a hardship though, clambering around timber yards looking for treasure might be time consuming but it's brilliant fun.

Good luck!