Beware the cheats!

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Thanks Custard and Mr T. Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.

Funnily enough I came to the exact same figure of £1000 per week workshop contribution, and seldom made it. It didn't seem like such a big deal turning that over, but trying to get it each week was not possible for me.

The idea that I would limit the use of man made boards in my furniture was for similar reasons to Custard using unusual timbers not available in the usual outlets. (I did that too). The idea was that it becomes hard (er) to sell my stuff if it had lots of MDF in it because it had little to differentiate it from all the shop available offerings. The irony was that I made loads of fitted bedroom furniture from veneered MDF and painted plywood. So don't be too hard on me Chris, I was more pragmatic than you give me credit.

Mike.

 

[AndyT]

Just picking out one thought from some of the many interesting posts...

It does seem to be generally agreed that prices of most antique furniture are very low at present.

I like to think I know a bit more than average about furniture and can be a discerning purchaser. If I want to buy, say, a nice hand made chest of drawers, from good quality timber, with sound construction details, I can buy an antique one. I can see a selection of different styles and make a choice.

So why should I take the risk of commissioning a craftsman to build me something, which would cost me a lot more, but still have corners cut in a struggle to make it economically?

This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.

 

[Jacob]

..... Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.....

What - tried to make and sell stuff which nobody wanted at the price?
Did it not occur to you to make something else which would sell?

This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.

Only some small makers struggle - others are quite successful. Some even become big makers.

 

[tomatwark]

Mike

If it did not work out for you, it may of been that you were in the wrong place, and with the economy the way it has been the wrong time.

A lot of well known furniture makers have tried and failed and then dusted themselves off had another go and made it work.

At least you tried.

I must admit though that when I pull up at a big house that has several very expensive cars which are pretty new sat on the drive I normally take that with a pinch of salt, as they are probably on finance or lease and I am probably wasting my time as they may not actually have the cash to pay.

If however I pull up at a big house and the cars are a bit older I am normally bit more positive as from experience they are the folks who will have an idea of what things cost and will have the money to pay for it and are not bothered about the Jones next door.

This does not always happen but more often than not it is the case.

There is no easy answer.

 

[custard]

Just picking out one thought from some of the many interesting posts...

It does seem to be generally agreed that prices of most antique furniture are very low at present.

I like to think I know a bit more than average about furniture and can be a discerning purchaser. If I want to buy, say, a nice hand made chest of drawers, from good quality timber, with sound construction details, I can buy an antique one. I can see a selection of different styles and make a choice.

So why should I take the risk of commissioning a craftsman to build me something, which would cost me a lot more, but still have corners cut in a struggle to make it economically?

This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.

Excellent points Andy, but I don't believe makers are losing out to antiques.

The antique furniture market is on its knees mainly because it's old, big, and dark in a market that wants modern, small, and light. I'm also seeing a fundamental change in attitudes amongst buyers below the age of say 50. Older buyers will accept the wonky cupboard doors and missing bits of **** beading in return for all that glorious patination. Younger buyers, more used to iPhone and BMW levels of fit and finish, just regard those things as evidence of decrepitude.

I used to think the time will soon come when we'll witness a sea change back to antiques. Now I'm not so sure. All the evidence seems to say we're living in smaller and smaller spaces, even the wealthiest will trade off living space for a Thames side location or to be within a biscuit toss of Kensington High Street. And there's no escaping the fact that the majority of quality antique furniture is on the big side, so maybe it's now permanently marooned in the past for simple space reasons?

 

[woodbrains]

Mike

If it did not work out for you, it may of been that you were in the wrong place, and with the economy the way it has been the wrong time.

A lot of well known furniture makers have tried and failed and then dusted themselves off had another go and made it work.

At least you tried.

I must admit though that when I pull up at a big house that has several very expensive cars which are pretty new sat on the drive I normally take that with a pinch of salt, as they are probably on finance or lease and I am probably wasting my time as they may not actually have the cash to pay.

If however I pull up at a big house and the cars are a bit older I am normally bit more positive as from experience the are are the folks who will have an idea of what things cost and will have the money to pay for it and are not bothered about the Jones next door.

This does not always happen but more often than not it is the case.

There is no easy answer.

Hello,

I know I'm in the wrong place, but I can't afford to move, I don't earn enough!

The real killer is, I would be content making stuff for my own consumption as a hobbyist, but my house has nowhere to do it. I try to do bits in the school workshop, but it is shut weekends.

And yes Jacob, if you read my posts, I did almost anything you could imagine from wood. Why don't you design me something that could work, batch produced if you like, projected asking price, etc. and I'll give it a go.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

It'd help if you posted up some pics of what you have made, which sold and which didn't.

 

[woodbrains]

It'd help if you posted up some pics of what you have made, which sold and which didn't.

Hello,

Everything sold, I made to commission. The problem was the price I had to sell to get the commission was unsustainably low. Asking the sustainable price never got the work, so I lowered so hard the pips squeaked, and still only managed to get some.

More examples, when I got the job at school, the head asked me would I make some honours boards to match existing antique ones, but taller and narrower to fit the wall spaces. We settled on a price of £ 2000 for two oak, broken scroll arch topped boards with carved acanthus leaf and linen fold motif between the arches, dentil moulds and pillasters etc. You know the sort of thing. I knew I was cheap but that was the max budget and I'd just started a new job, what choice did I have. Besides, I still had the workshop for a few more months lease. Then the caretaker told me the head asked Todhunter Davis down the road for a quote and turned them down at 4000. They just won't pay!

I did a built in bedroom furniture job though an interior designer for a couple of GP's . Oak veneered MDF with oak solids, alcove wardrobes over drawers, some presses, high cupboards on top etc. It looked nice, nothing you saw in the shops but not ostentatious. The price wasn't too shoddy, not comfortable but OK, if I had a few more consecutive jobs the same I could have been a bit hopeful. I finished the installation and the happy lady paid there and then and asked would I do a metamorphic library steps/chair. Now I wanted that job, I had a bit of breathing space, I'd just been paid and bespoke chair would have been a good portfolio addition. I thought I'd not push hard with the price, if I broke even, I'd do it for kicks. I said about 1000 and was turned down instantly. Not even within negotiation range! A bespoke metamorphic chair for a thousand was a flipping bargain, unsustainably cheap for me and not even weeks pay for a GP let alone a couple. It just so happened that I met with Suzanne Hodgeson, mentioned above, a day or so later. She told me she had just done a metamorphic chair for £2000. I just couldn't get the breaks. Think about what would be involved in a chair design like that. It is labourious mocking up and trialling the thing before you can even think of making. It can't be done for 1000 let alone less.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Think about what would be involved in a chair design like that. It is labourious mocking up and trialling the thing before you can even think of making. It can't be done for 1000 let alone less.

You are absolutely right.
One here for £120. Cheapo import as per our OP, which takes us full circle.
One here for £8000 which is more like it.
I've had the same parallel problem. Was asked to make "metamorphic" out-door pub tables (folds from table to bench etc) by a chap who had seen one and brought a photo. He's tracked them down in a catalogue and found them for about £250. He didn't want just one but thought he could sell them in ones and twos and I might do a run, competitively priced.
An obvious non starter but not wanting to say no outright I explained the complications - not least the cost of developing a design. I suggested that a good short cut would be for him to go out and buy one for me to work over and copy/improve. Only £250!! But that was too much for him and the end of the project!

Who needs clients like that (and like yours)? Maybe the idea of getting commissions is itself a non starter, unless you are very lucky? Some of them get a buzz from having a forelock pulling craftsman at their command but have no idea themselves about design and costs.

But on the other hand - %£ck these "clients" - why not make items such as these (or others of your choice) in your own good time, get them sorted and get out there and flog them?

You don't need or want "commissions" they are a PITA (except perhaps as a sideline to your main operation) but you do need to make stuff and sell it.

 

[Mr T]

Jacob:

"The message is - if you've got the kit and you want to earn a living, be prepared to make anything and everything!
If you are going to be precious about like our woodbrains you will have to struggle or fail altogether. You might even end up as a teacher!"

Nothing wrong with teaching, I quite enjoy it!

Many makers don't seem to be very switched on when it comes to getting commissions. I realised early on that things I do without a second thought (like vigorously working a room to sell my furniture, or canvassing high end local shops to get my furniture displayed and noticed, or cadging free display space at county shows, or getting that all important 30% deposit paid and banked) are just beyond the comprehension of many makers. They could no more effectively promote their products than they could fly. And that's the flip side of the cabinet making skill issue. You might not need Guild Mark skill levels, but you absolutely need to be sufficiently gregarious and outgoing that you can actively sell your furniture to prospective clients.

.

Quite agree Custard. This relates to what I was saying about attitude to the business, many idealistic one man makers think of themselves just as Furniture makers when they should consider themselves first and foremost businessmen.However often they don't have the temperament for this, me included. Not everyone has what it takes to be a businessman.These individauls, if they want to continue making should move to employed work.

Your estimate of £1000 per week about tally's with mine when I was making full time, I didn't achieve it very often, mainly for the reasons outlined above.

..... Perhaps some may now realise the reality of what we do, my case tried to do.....

What - tried to make and sell stuff which nobody wanted at the price?
Did it not occur to you to make something else which would sell?

This could be one of the reasons why small makers struggle.

Only some small makers struggle - others are quite successful. Some even become big makers.

I think you are being unreasonably harsh on Mike here. He has said repeatedly that he tried to diversify, it just did not work for him. Not everyone is successful, there will always be those that "become big makers" and those that continue to struggle and there can be many reasons for this. Everything always seems so black and white in your world Jacob.

Chris

 

[Jacob]

J....Not everyone is successful, there will always be those that "become big makers and those that continue to struggle and there can be many reasons for this. Everything always seems so black and white in your world Jacob.

Chris

Not really black and white - I've had to dodge around from one fiasco to another and have only been successful intermittently. But I have stayed in work doing more or less what I want to do (except for brief period of collapse of marriage, business, and some crappe jobs)
Mike is vocally blaming the universe for lack of taste and being rude about everybody elses' humble efforts ("might as well be making cardboard boxes" etc)
But he seems to have made two big simple mistakes - to expect to rely on commissions and to expect to have his talent recognised as of right.
Seems to me a very old fashioned and slightly romantic idea. Times have changed - almost everybody wanting a "metamorphic chair" (or any other object) is going to just what I did and google and be immediately presented with 356000 hits. it then takes 10 minutes to buy one and it might even arrive the following day.
The point is - Mike's chair should have been in there near the top. Why would anyone prefer to commission one unseen, not even designed, expensive, from a craftsman of unknown ability, and have to wait months?
They might do this if he had a track record over many years and a back catalogue to show for it, was a well known name, featuring in the interior mags etc, but it takes time to get there.

And yes "Nothing wrong with teaching" I agree.

 

[tomatwark]

Everyone will have struggled at some point.

I was in business for 10 years and it was really tough at times, when my landlord decided to sell my workshop for housing, I started to look around for new premises.

What then happened is a local furniture firm got wind of this and made me an offer I could not refuse, this meant I could go to work in the morning and go home at night, have a beer and get a wage at the end of every week.

I took it, 10 years of silly hours and not being certain where the next bit of money was coming from had taken it's toll.

5 years on in 2005 I moved up here as I had met my wife, I saw some nice little workshops and decided to try again, if I had a crystal ball however I would not have, as 2009-2013 were really tough.

I will say that I have taken a few gambles to get where I am now and they have paid off.

BUT I am under no illusions that it is plain sailing from here, if anything it is now tougher as I have to find work for my staff and also pay larger overheads.

And I now don't make anything but drive a desk and run around talking to customers.

I know where you are coming from Mike I have been there.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yep. He made everything including coffins and painted furniture.
.

In other words the income stream the fitted kitchens and bedrooms etc give us today.

Hello,

Your right, I forgot Chippendale made all that stuff, dab hand with an emulsion brush, too he was. Doh!, I'm an *****! I shouldn't wonder he also made fine mahogany teeth for the local dentist. ( Who was also a barber and surgeon)

Oh hang on, wait, Chippendale was a designer, businessman and employed 30 staff. Of course he didn't make coffins and paint things himself, it is unlikely he made anything much after he set up in London. In any case, what relevance does a mid 18 C furniture designer have to a one man maker today?

And does anybody actually read my posts? I said I have done painted built in furniture, site joinery, kitchens etc. I have also fitted wooden floors, fitted bedroom furniture, built sheds, stairs, windows, shop fronts, stud walls....... I was a veritable one man band, which is the problem. And I still could never have the funds to buy Altendorf panel saws and Panhans 4 siders or whatever the production guys use these days and employ staff to run the things. After a few years of subsistence living and not making a satisfying piece of furniture because I got the reputation of being a flipping site joiner, a painter a shed builder, anything but a good furniture maker, it was time to fold. It is not as if I hadn't worked for lawyers, surgeons, GP's, architects all with the money, but would not buy. They wanted my stuff, they loved it, but they would not buy. I had been told by an architect and an interior designer that I was charging too little, so I put my prices up a little. I lost every job I quoted for. It is the wealthy who will not spend, is what I'm trying to discuss, not a fix for me as I've been there and won't do it again. People will be cheated and buy dreadful quality stuff to save money rather than buy good stuff for a fair price and I'm interested why that culture has arisen.

Incidentally, I have never wanted to emulate Makepeace or Barnsley et all. I have only wanted to do reasonable things not high art or make egotistical statements.

Mike.

I dont think its true that customers wont spend the money or that there is a culture of people buying rubbish.

The difficulty being a one man band high bespoke maker is a lackmof marketing / branding. Perhaps even more importantly, there is a lack of a tangeable product for sale. When I started as a joinery wotkshop, I researched loads of other small joinery shops doing similar, they mostly all advertised thry could do, windows, cupboards, stairs etc etc and prided themselves on 'we make anything'. The problem with that is there is no product. Imagine going into a store which is empty but a friendly salemen standing with a scrapbook of poor site shots and saying oh yes we can make anything........

I moved away from general joinery and decided to specialize in orangeries so I invested in a search engine optimised website, professional photography and a 50 page brochure. Now I can go and sell jobs for £100k because customers can see a product.

In the same way with furniture, its the marketing that counts. Your customers may not buy a £3k chair, but they will buy a £70k Mark Wilkinson kitchen.

The difficulty for highly skilled cabinetmakers is often they are amazing craftsmen but very poor at marketing and selling. Custard refers to this and says the networking etc is key to his work

Also Im not sure customers care how something is made, if a piece of amazing art is created by a cnc machine does it reduce its importance, I dont think so.

There is a place for 1 man bands but they still need a brochure and good branding and an understanding of the market. There is plenty of demand for fitted furniture, ok its mfc carcases, but buy in the parts and do something special with the detailing.

There is a high demand for AV walls. With all the latest tvs and surround sound, there is an opportunity for some great designs. Maybe include built in power points for ipad / phone chargers

Kitchens - there is a vogue for these huge pantry cabinets which can be beautiful pieces of cabinetmaking and could include some unusual timbers etc.

 

[Jacob]

............ Why don't you design me something that could work, batch produced if you like, projected asking price, etc. and I'll give it a go.

Mike.

Because you need to go out on a limb for yourself, not expect a client to commission, pay up front, take all the risk, provide the design.

Take the metamorphic chair idea; a good idea, useful item applicable to many scenarios needing a step up access - kitchens, bedroom, library.
Go out and buy a one (or two) cheap examples. Try them out, see how they work. Look at others on line. Take apart, work up an improved design of your own. Make a set of 10. Put them on ebay, etsy, small ads, own web site, take to craft fairs, give one to your mother-in-law, badger your friends, even try retailers if desperate.
You never know until you try!

PS 'kinnel there's one here for £60.
No doubt it's crappe but it could be quicker and easier to work out the geometry by buying one rather than spending a few hours on the drawing board. Treat it as a first maquette. Beat them at their own game!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.

I'm sure Custard and Mr. T will confirm this, but it is actually hard to make things to sell. It ties up funds and takes up workshop space, and when funds are none existent it can just be unviable. Finding an outlet is difficult, galleries like to have the stuff as it adds diversity to their space, but they do nothing to promote you despite doubling your ticket price. Things sit there, get a bit knarly from all the prodding fingers and little accidents, and then you get asked to remove them. Some galleries actually take any makers tickets off the work, so the public don't get directly in touch with the makers, so as a promotional tool, it is useless. Retail shops, at least round here, won't entertain having the stuff, they know it won't sell and takes up space for the imported tat. Some interior designers have it, if you promise a cut from any work they chuck your way, but the items get marked up the same as gallery prices, so puts people off actually pursuing that avenue. Trade shows/design shows, done those, can be expensive for a tiny pitch. Frequented by people out for a day trip, not many serious customers. They can get you known and sometimes generate commissions somewhere in the future, but often not. The last one I did had loads of interest from a gushing audience, gave out loads of leaflets took loads of phone numbers from people who definitely wanted something.... must come to visit my home to discuss further. I followed up the leads and got nothing but evasive excuses why they couldn't invite me round just yet, but they'd get back to me, definitely looove you stuff, yadda, yadda.

Websites, we all have those, how do you get traffic to get your listing within the first 20 pages of search results? More money and time wasted doing mindless social media nonsense. Twitter, bah!

Footfall from those wealthy enough to buy your stuff is precisely zero in your concrete industrial unit in industrial wasteland. Workshop open days, ditto, no one wants a day trip there. Could go on, but the upshot is, the hit rate for all this effort is vanishingly small and you haven't been to the workshop to make something any where near enough, the tools are sitting there, workshop rent is paid and you are out visiting interior designers who saw something at a trade show and would love a dining table for this fabulous barn conversion, and it will look like this (that will fall down) it could be made from this wood and that metal ( that's only available in turning square dimensions and that amount of welded stainless steel would blow your budget into the statosphere alone).

It is a nightmare.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.

Good idea! Why not post a few pics here? Have a web page and include it in your signature - a lot of other traders do.
Don't rely on one outlet - try them all

I'm sure Custard and Mr. T will confirm this, but it is actually hard to make things to sell. It ties up funds and takes up workshop space, and when funds are none existent it can just be unviable. ......

Even harder to get a commission and expect someone else to tie up their funds and just patiently wait.
NB a lot of other people will also tell you that it's easy to make things to sell. Some win some lose.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hello,

I have made pieces to try and sell in the past and have just started an etsy account and hope to put on some things in a few weeks, jewellery boxes and smaller items. I'm trying to keep the price in the back pocket money range, but it is hard to keep things simple without making pedestrian things. I'm working on batches at the moment, hope they be ready soon.

I'm sure Custard and Mr. T will confirm this, but it is actually hard to make things to sell. It ties up funds and takes up workshop space, and when funds are none existent it can just be unviable. Finding an outlet is difficult, galleries like to have the stuff as it adds diversity to their space, but they do nothing to promote you despite doubling your ticket price. Things sit there, get a bit knarly from all the prodding fingers and little accidents, and then you get asked to remove them. Some galleries actually take any makers tickets off the work, so the public don't get directly in touch with the makers, so as a promotional tool, it is useless. Retail shops, at least round here, won't entertain having the stuff, they know it won't sell and takes up space for the imported tat. Some interior designers have it, if you promise a cut from any work they chuck your way, but the items get marked up the same as gallery prices, so puts people off actually pursuing that avenue. Trade shows/design shows, done those, can be expensive for a tiny pitch. Frequented by people out for a day trip, not many serious customers. They can get you known and sometimes generate commissions somewhere in the future, but often not. The last one I did had loads of interest from a gushing audience, gave out loads of leaflets took loads of phone numbers from people who definitely wanted something.... must come to visit my home to discuss further. I followed up the leads and got nothing but evasive excuses why they couldn't invite me round just yet, but they'd get back to me, definitely looove you stuff, yadda, yadda.

Websites, we all have those, how do you get traffic to get your listing within the first 20 pages of search results? More money and time wasted doing mindless social media nonsense. Twitter, bah!

Footfall from those wealthy enough to buy your stuff is precisely zero in your concrete industrial unit in industrial wasteland. Workshop open days, ditto, no one wants a day trip there. Could go on, but the upshot is, the hit rate for all this effort is vanishingly small and you haven't been to the workshop to make something any where near enough, the tools are sitting there, workshop rent is paid and you are out visiting interior designers who saw something at a trade show and would love a dining table for this fabulous barn conversion, and it will look like this (that will fall down) it could be made from this wood and that metal ( that's only available in turning square dimensions and that amount of welded stainless steel would blow your budget into the statosphere alone).

It is a nightmare.

Mike.

It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??

 

[woodbrains]

It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??

Hello.

I got out about 6 years ago, partially at first hoping to work a job and try to keep making with a view to getting back in at some point, with a bit of capital and some pieces to display. Renting the workshop on a low wage as a school technician made that a non-starter so I got out completely after I used the workshop set up to restore my house.

TBH I don't mean to sound as dreadfully negative as I obviously come across, I still love designing and making things, but I do believe it isn't possible to earn a living that way. But if that is what you feel in your bones you want to do, then I suppose you have to try. Of course some will get better luck and some will end up making kitchens or something in a production workshop and employ staff. I'm sure they are satisfied with that route, it fulfills a need in the market and has its own challenges. But it must be realised by those who do that, that it is not the same as what I wanted to do, so doesn't tick the boxes for me, creatively. We have heard people doing that becoming desk jockeys and not making again. I'm not knocking them, it earns them a living for their families and that is important.

At the minute I work in a secondary school Product Design Dept, which is a watered down version of what used to be Craft Design and Technology itself a watered down version of woodwork, metal work and engineering drawing. It has little in the way of fulfillment either and the pay is rubbish really but regular. The holidays are good and the plan was to do some making of my own then. I still have all the tools and machines from when I was a full time maker. My house is too small to have a shed to make in though I do have one at my mum's home; a PITA in itself as it is a half hour drive and tunnel toll each way to get there. Visits after dinner when there is nothing else to do in the evening is not really viable. It is difficult as a hobby for me too.

Mike.

 

[RobinBHM]

It does sound soul destroying Mike, you have my sympathy. Are you still in it or have you already got out? You sound jaded and if you are still involved, maybe the right choice is a change of direction??

Hello.

I got out about 6 years ago, partially at first hoping to work a job and try to keep making with a view to getting back in at some point, with a bit of capital and some pieces to display. Renting the workshop on a low wage as a school technician made that a non-starter so I got out completely after I used the workshop set up to restore my house.

TBH I don't mean to sound as dreadfully negative as I obviously come across, I still love designing and making things, but I do believe it isn't possible to earn a living that way. But if that is what you feel in your bones you want to do, then I suppose you have to try. Of course some will get better luck and some will end up making kitchens or something in a production workshop and employ staff. I'm sure they are satisfied with that route, it fulfills a need in the market and has its own challenges. But it must be realised by those who do that, that it is not the same as what I wanted to do, so doesn't tick the boxes for me, creatively. We have heard people doing that becoming desk jockeys and not making again. I'm not knocking them, it earns them a living for their families and that is important.

At the minute I work in a secondary school Product Design Dept, which is a watered down version of what used to be Craft Design and Technology itself a watered down version of woodwork, metal work and engineering drawing. It has little in the way of fulfillment either and the pay is rubbish really but regular. The holidays are good and the plan was to do some making of my own then. I still have all the tools and machines from when I was a full time maker. My house is too small to have a shed to make in though I do have one at my mum's home; a PITA in itself as it is a half hour drive and tunnel toll each way to get there. Visits after dinner when there is nothing else to do in the evening is not really viable. It is difficult as a hobby for me too.

Mike.

Ironically I am in that situation (desk jockey) my natural interest is hands on practical work, but my actual job now is all office based, its anazing how much administration is required to keep a small joinery company working. Dealing with customers, buying etc etc does add up to a lot of time. I do still enjoy the technical design, creative design so it isnt all bad. Long hours though and last year I had about 3 days holiday. Im now lookung into the future for an exit strategy, something I can do from home or a van with no overheads. Sadly my house location doesnt have space for a workshop although enough space for a decent office, so woodworking from home is not an option.

I do feel sometimes it would be nice to be without the worry of having large overhead costs (IRO £6k per month not including wages).

 

[SteveF]

my "retirement" plan was always basic but well built items
I go to pubs and think the outdoor benches \ planters are crap, i could build that and offer a maintenance plan
I always thought I could do better than the rubbish they buy
go to garden centre and look at carp bird tables, same thing
as you can see, I never planned to be making furniture
I still have to work and not retired so my plan is 10 yrs away sadly
i am not sure there will be a pub by the time I can put anything into action
so my future looks bleak, but then I go to a friends house and they spent £30 on 4 little coasters with a small stand
the wood would cost £5 and about 30 minutes work
£25 profit in materials, but no way you could sell 10 a day let alone 1, so I know I cant even begin to make a retirement plan
so even if you build tat, i am not sure how anyone makes a living in woodwork
I understand the fine furniture makers ( lets choose Custard as an example) can ask high premium, and I agree they deserve the recognition and rightly so
there can't be many people making quality pieces like he turns out, even if not to my taste (does not detract from their skill)
but if you are using high quality timbers, then your commissions are swallowed by timber costs, so still not a worthy profit

I have seen the kitchens Dr Bob makes...quality is understatement...but I am sure he is one of the lucky ones and tbh it is not a route most want to take

just my 2 pence input in to one of the most interesting threads i have seen on this forum

Steve