Bevel-up, angle low: woodworker confused..

[D_W]

BUT, this ignores the fact of the most important thing to ever come along when it comes to tearout prevention: the cap iron. The cap iron trumps all other things including sharpness of the edge, bedding angle, skewing, you name it.

And this is based on what? First hand practical experience or stuff you've read?

I've been working a lot with closely set cap irons since an American chap posted his videos on this forum. It's a really useful technique, but despite all my efforts so far, on many different timbers, I'm still a long way from saying it "trumps all other things".

I'm about to start hand planing a highly figured slab of Bubinga that's about 1800mm x 600mm, so too big to pass through my thicknesser.. As a timber it's roughly the density and hardness of a Rosewood, I'm not looking forward to it but it's got to be done. That job will add a small increment to my own conclusions on closely set cap irons, but I'll still be a long way from a conclusion.

It trumps all things. The market decided that over the last couple of hundred years, and especially in the era when professionals were working.

As far as bubinga goes, though, I wouldn't want to do much of anything with any plane other than smooth it - especially if it's got some curl. If I had to work it (I have hand thicknessed cocobolo), then I would, though. Thinner shavings than softer wood, and no other difference.

Depending on what one is doing, the superiority of the cap iron becomes much more evident in penultimate work (trying, etc), but it also allows you to complete smoothing faster if you are working from rough.

It also doesn't rely on sharpness to work. The only downside to it is that it takes a little bit longer for people to learn.

 

[custard]

As far as bubinga goes, though, I wouldn't want to do much of anything with any plane other than smooth it - especially if it's got some curl.

I don't have that choice. It's a paying job and that's what the market wants.

 

[D_W]

As far as bubinga goes, though, I wouldn't want to do much of anything with any plane other than smooth it - especially if it's got some curl.

I don't have that choice. It's a paying job and that's what the market wants.

If it was for pay, I'd gladly do it, too. Wants are one thing when no money is involved, but something entirely different when there is.

Might be a reasonable place to use a hand power planer, though I'll admit on easy wood (beech, cherry, walnut, etc), I've never been able to make a hand power planer work any faster than just using a good wooden jack plane - it certainly induces less sweat, though.

 

[AJB Temple]

Until recently (last few years) I only had three hand planes (cheap No 4, Clifton rebate (very good) and a small block plane (recently replaced with Veritas version) and I am ashamed to reveal my ignorance but I have never given any thought to the whole BU/BD low angle or not discussions and for 20 years had no sharpening set up except a single stone and some fine emery paper. Mostly I just work with what I have and as I use the stuff constantly that has worked for me. I lot of my enjoyable (as opposed to utility) woodwork has been making musical instruments and some of the word is very awkward (rosewood, ebony, highly figured maple. birdseye etc). I have made a few scrapers to suit what I need, out of scrounged steel. I can't say I have ever had much of a problem with these limited tools (no P/T, no bandsaw, no lathe, etc).

In the past few years as I am trying to ease back from my main business a bit, I have ended up with a fully equipped workshop and quite a few fine tools and proper machinery. I like them but I am not sure the finished products are any better (though I am quicker). By and large we don't really need tons of gear - we just need to learn to sharpen and to use simple tools well.

I think you can handle end grain with lots of tools - quite often I have used a chisel to take off very fine shavings (I can sharpen stuff). I like a small block plane mainly because it fits the hand well for doing quite delicate trimming and I am a bit cack handed with a big plane. Some of us obsess a bit over gear.

 

[D_W]

I don't build guitars or musical instruments, so I can't say this with authority, but I would say (based on the folks I know who build instruments), I don't think there is as much to be gained from one method to another as comparing dimensioning 50 board feet of wood for a furniture project.

(as in, I'm a card carrying supporter of the cap iron, but I don't think there is any practical advantage on the time side when building instruments - little of the time is planing).

George Wilson, over on the US forums, had made instruments for quite a long time before branching out, and he mentioned that he used a single block plane for many years when making guitars. I don't think for the early part, he had the means to get anything else.

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson.html

George has as much metal and woodworking equipment as anyone I know now. I don't think he ever used the cap iron to do anything, at the museum where he did most of his day work, they weren't allowed to use planes that had cap irons because the curators thought they weren't common enough. He's made some fabulous planes and scrapers, though.

 

[ED65]

BUT, this ignores the fact of the most important thing to ever come along when it comes to tearout prevention: the cap iron. The cap iron trumps all other things including sharpness of the edge, bedding angle, skewing, you name it.

And this is based on what? First hand practical experience or stuff you've read?

Both. Now my hands-on experience wouldn't be broad or deep but the results of my comparative tests were absolutely conclusive about the effectiveness and ease, confirming all the good things I'd read about using the cap iron for this purpose.

I've mentioned this before but should repeat it, the advice on dealing with tearout in writing is not at all uniform in books (this is across the board, amongst old texts all the way up to current books). There is abundant conflicting advice on how close you can/should set the cap iron and in fact whether to use it at all. The books that don't come down firmly in favour of the cap iron will invariably say to close the mouth or resort to scraping, sometimes both.
(homer) In some modern writing they essentially tell you to give up, to rely on sanding instead.

I've been working a lot with closely set cap irons since an American chap posted his videos on this forum. It's a really useful technique, but despite all my efforts so far, on many different timbers, I'm still a long way from saying it "trumps all other things".

Well let me ask a question in return, have you found anything that reliably works better?

The thing about the cap-iron setting that's so powerful is that reducing it always and immediately improves results and although a close-set mouth can sometimes equal the performance it is definitely trickier to get set up just so.

That's not to say that the cap iron can prevent tearout 100% of the time but you can get damned close. It gives good results repeatably, with little fussing, which can't be said of a tight mouth. And as soon as you want to change your shaving thickness you have to start dialling it all in again, while the same positioning of the cap iron can be used for a wide range of shaving thicknesses.

 

[ED65]

By and large we don't really need tons of gear - we just need to learn to sharpen and to use simple tools well.

Amen to that.

I find the simpleness of your sharpening setup a really interesting contrast with much of what I've read from luthiers and other instrument makers who seem to be, collectively, the ones most likely to obsess about achieving the Nth degree of sharpness on their edges so spend megabucks on sharpening gear and insist it's necessary to the results they require.

 

[AJB Temple]

ED65 Luthiers are making precision instruments of beauty and I think we like tools of beauty too. However, I started trying to make musical instruments when I was 16 (having made model aeroplanes for years before that) and had no money as I was just starting at university as well. If you have no money you learn to adapt. My dad was a toolmaking precision engineer and he taught me quite early on how to sharpen using very simple gear - basically an oil stone along with wet and dry on a sheet of thick glass. I could sharpen anything on it to a degree where I could get a transparent even shaving in maple by the time I was 18. All my stuff was cheap and mostly given to me for birthdays (I still have and use my Footprint chisels). Was a bit time consuming mind you. Nowadays I have everything from Japanese water stones, diamond plates, bench grinders and the Robert Sorby pro edge (excellent). Currently I am making a timber framed green oak building and I am running a handful of slicks and big chisels over the pro edge twice a day. Takes a few minutes and is super helpful. But I could do it by hand without spending £300 on the pro edge if I was less lazy! I don't bother with jigs.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I am almost reluctant to post on this thread since many see me as biased towards BU planes. That is only partially so - I work largely with very interlocked timbers, and high cutting angles were my mainstay until a few years ago, when I began using chipbreakered planes. Now my choices are wider.

BU planes with high cutting angles provide a superior performance on interlocked timber surfaces. They remain a reliable style of plane, one that is easy to set up and use. I tend to use BD chipbreakered planes more now, but this is because they are easier to sharpen if your preference, like mine, is to freehand hone. BU plane blades are best honed with a honing guide.

It is a simple matter to hone a camber on a BU plane blade. The essence of this is a 25 degree primary bevel (for ALL BU plane blades - save your money and only get blades with a 25 degree bevel), followed by a 50 degree secondary micro bevel. The secondary micro bevel is cambered. Not the primary bevel. This is an efficient method that works on the principle of reducing the amount of steel to hone. This is a method I developed in 2008:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... lades.html

I doubt whether many here will work interlocked timbers to the point where they can judge whether a high angled BU plane is better or worse than a chip breakered common angle BD plane. I do this frequently. The chipbreaker does have the edge. But this is irrelevant for most - for most, the BU plane will do all they need.

Regards from Peth

Derek

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Hi -

I tend to use BD chipbreakered planes more now, but this is because they are easier to sharpen if your preference, like mine, is to freehand hone. BU plane blades are best honed with a honing guide.

I'm interested that you say this - I guess you (hand) hone with the chipbreaker still on. I take the chipbreaker off to hone (by hand or, obviously, with a honing guide), maybe I don't really need to when hand sharpening, although I usually have a very small gap between the cutting edge and the business end of the chipbreaker. I don't usually use a honing guide on my BU blades - unless I'm worried I've got the cutting edge skewed. This explains why I'm quicker with a BU plane - perhaps for not very good reasons!

It is a simple matter to hone a camber on a BU plane blade. The essence of this is a 25 degree primary bevel (for ALL BU plane blades - save your money and only get blades with a 25 degree bevel), followed by a 50 degree secondary micro bevel. The secondary micro bevel is cambered. Not the primary bevel. This is an efficient method that works on the principle of reducing the amount of steel to hone.
Derek

Excellent, another idea I wish I'd thought of!
Cheers, W2S

 

[worn thumbs]

I would be more impressed it they could achieve sharpness without gadgetry.

The only thing that impresses me is the quality of the furniture that someone produces, I couldn't care less if they used a honing guide or not.

And if they produce something other than furniture?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi -

I tend to use BD chipbreakered planes more now, but this is because they are easier to sharpen if your preference, like mine, is to freehand hone. BU plane blades are best honed with a honing guide.

I'm interested that you say this - I guess you (hand) hone with the chipbreaker still on. I take the chipbreaker off to hone (by hand or, obviously, with a honing guide), maybe I don't really need to when hand sharpening, although I usually have a very small gap between the cutting edge and the business end of the chipbreaker. I don't usually use a honing guide on my BU blades - unless I'm worried I've got the cutting edge skewed. This explains why I'm quicker with a BU plane - perhaps for not very good reasons!

A chipbreakered blade is just a blade with a chipbreaker, which may be set close. They are taken apart for sharpening.

The reason I say it is faster is that the primary bevel of the BD plane blade is hollow ground and then I just freehand sharpen on the hollow. Easy peasy.

With a BU plane, when working with a high cutting angle, it is necessary to use a guide to hone the specific high angle on a secondary bevel. This microbevel cannot be done freehand. It needs a guide. Using a guide takes more care and set up. Freehanding is quicker and easier for someone less patient with interruptions, such as myself.

Resetting the chipbreaker on a BD blade does require extra time, but practice makes perfect. There is probably not a lot of time differences between the two. If you are a guide user, there is no issue to resolve.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

.....You can resharpen a blade to increase the EP on a bevel up plane,...

You can increase the EP angle on a bevel down plane too - it just takes a little bevel on the face side to whatever angle you want.
It works too - the steeper the angle the less the tear out and the nearer you get to a scraper action.
For some reason this doesn't feature in these endless plane arguments. I guess because it begs the question; what is the point of buying one of these modern retro BU planes? IMHO the answer is; there is no point at all.

...it is necessary to use a guide to hone the specific high angle....

Only if it is very precisely specific! But this is not necessary - a few degrees either way won't make any difference.
So yes you can do it freehand and free yourself from a load of expensive kit; jigs, diamond plates for stone flattening and all that extra work.
And with the money you save by not buying heavy BU retro planes you can buy loads of wood instead!

 

[bugbear]

You can increase the EP angle on a bevel down plane too - it just takes a little bevel on the face side to whatever angle you want.
It works too - the steeper the angle the less the tear out and the nearer you get to a scraper action.
For some reason this doesn't feature in these endless plane arguments.

But I remember when AndyT and I first told you about back bevels and EP, during a plane argument, when you were trying (and initially failing) to finish plane a table top with a cheap Acorn plane.

BugBear

 

[iNewbie]

.....You can resharpen a blade to increase the EP on a bevel up plane,...

You can increase the EP angle on a bevel down plane too - it just takes a little bevel on the face side to whatever angle you want.
It works too - the steeper the angle the less the tear out and the nearer you get to a scraper action.
For some reason this doesn't feature in these endless plane arguments. I guess because it begs the question; what is the point of buying one of these modern retro BU planes? IMHO the answer is; there is no point at all.

...it is necessary to use a guide to hone the specific high angle....

Only if it is very precisely specific! But this is not necessary - a few degrees either way won't make any difference.
So yes you can do it freehand and free yourself from a load of expensive kit; jigs, diamond plates for stone flattening and all that extra work.
And with the money you save by not buying heavy BU retro planes you can buy loads of wood instead!

Said the man with an expensive Sorby Pro-Edge... You should try your grind free-hand and avoid that expensive kit. Imagine the wood you could have bought.

 

[Jacob]

.....You can resharpen a blade to increase the EP on a bevel up plane,...

You can increase the EP angle on a bevel down plane too - it just takes a little bevel on the face side to whatever angle you want.
It works too - the steeper the angle the less the tear out and the nearer you get to a scraper action.
For some reason this doesn't feature in these endless plane arguments. I guess because it begs the question; what is the point of buying one of these modern retro BU planes? IMHO the answer is; there is no point at all.

...it is necessary to use a guide to hone the specific high angle....

Only if it is very precisely specific! But this is not necessary - a few degrees either way won't make any difference.
So yes you can do it freehand and free yourself from a load of expensive kit; jigs, diamond plates for stone flattening and all that extra work.
And with the money you save by not buying heavy BU retro planes you can buy loads of wood instead!

Said the man with an expensive Sorby Pro-Edge... You should try your grind free-hand and avoid that expensive kit. Imagine the wood you could have bought.

I wouldn't advice grinding by hand. It's possible but very slow even with a coarse diamond plate. If desperate it's quite fast with coarse wet n dry in a pool of white spirit (i.e. paper backed not cloth, not stuck down).
Pro edge pays for itself - it's much better than a wheel.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Jacob wrote:

You can increase the EP angle on a bevel down plane too - it just takes a little bevel on the face side to whatever angle you want.
It works too - the steeper the angle the less the tear out and the nearer you get to a scraper action.
For some reason this doesn't feature in these endless plane arguments. I guess because it begs the question; what is the point of buying one of these modern retro BU planes? IMHO the answer is; there is no point at all.

Yes there is a point. It is called Centre of Effort.

You can add a 15 degree backbevel (which may be 0.5mm wide) to the blade of a common angle BD Stanley. This will create a 60 degree cutting angle. It should be capable of planing as well as any dedicated half pitch (60 degree) plane or a BU plane with a 60 degree included angle. In effect, all these planes should perform the same. The wood cannot tell the difference between the planes.

However, you can tell the difference between the action of the planes when you push them. The 60 degree Stanley will be harder to push. A high-sided coffin smoother with a 60 degree bed will feel similarly hard to push. By contrast, a razee-type smoother or a low profile body, such as a HNT Gordon or a Chinese woodie, will feel completely different. Pushing from low down is more efficient. This is even more the case with BU planes. Further, as the handle becomes more vertical, or we push from the lower end of the handle, so we increase the efficiency.

This is easy to test out: push your Stanley from the upper end of the handle, then drop your hand and push from the lowermost section.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Jacon wrote:

Only if it is very precisely specific! But this is not necessary - a few degrees either way won't make any difference.
So yes you can do it freehand and free yourself from a load of expensive kit; jigs, diamond plates for stone flattening and all that extra work.
And with the money you save by not buying heavy BU retro planes you can buy loads of wood instead!

Using a guide with BU planes is recommended not to be exact with the bevel angle, but because a microbevel reduces the steel to be honed when one wants a cambered blade. If you do not need a cambered blade (such as when shooting or a jointer), then leave the blade flat or hollow and freehand it. However, if you do plan to use a microbevel, a guide is needed to achieve the bevel angle since it is too small to do freehanding. It does not need to be exact, but it is difficult to keep in the ballpark when the range is small (40 degrees and 50 degrees produces quite different results).

It is this reason that I turn to a BD plane. I prefer the simplicity of sharpening a bevel down plane blade, one that is hollow ground at 30 degrees, and then freehanded on the hollow. This is not a criticism of the BU plane, which can achieve the highest standards and do so simply, because there are those who only use guides, and the distinction I make is not relevant for them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

.....a microbevel reduces the steel to be honed when one wants a cambered blade. .....

I grind a blade to camber the shape I want, before honing.
Honing a camber onto a straight edge would be much more difficult - and pointless if you have a grinder to hand - even if just a coarse stone for hand grinding.
Derek you might as well argue that honing a straight edge onto a cambered blade could be a good idea!

 

[Jacob]

......This is even more the case with BU planes. Further, as the handle becomes more vertical, or we push from the lower end of the handle, so we increase the efficiency.

This is easy to test out: push your Stanley from the upper end of the handle, then drop your hand and push from the lowermost section....

But if we can do that (we can) then we don't need a BU plane. You don't have to hold the handle at the tip!