best joint for the job

[skeetstar]

Folks I plan to knock up a pair of refectory benches like the one shown here. I will splay the legs outward a few degrees so that they are not vertical. I will probably use oak pegs to fix the seat timber into the top edges of the rail and legs. My question is what joint would be strongest to join the top rail to the legs? Timber will be 25 to 30mm thick, oak.
I was thinking of some sort of housing joint, would that be stongest do you think? Alternatively I could use a wedged mortice and tenon, but I quite like the idea of not cutting right through the leg timber unless there is no other way.

I don't have a biscuit jointer.

Opinions welcomed

thanks

 

[blackrodd]

I would use a Stopped housing joint, rail down on to the legs.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=stopp ... FAodxFgIEg

Here's a link, top left of the page. Regards Rodders

 

[Myfordman]

I think I'd go for a stopped sliding dovetail. With splayed legs there will be a tendency for the joint to be pulled open at the lower ends of the rails and a dovetail will resist this.

 

[custard]

You talk about "knocking something up". I know it's just words but words are important, once splayed legs and angles enter the picture you don't "knock" things up, especially in 30mm thick oak.

Unless you're a reasonably experienced furniture maker, with a fair few projects under your belt, you should stick to 90 degree angles.

I recently posted a photo of an item that has many of the build characteristics you're talking about,

This is not an easy piece to make (or at least it's not easy if you plan on gap free jointing!).

The strongest joints are through wedged mortice and tenons, or a deep housing joint with a supporting and close fitting stretcher/apron rail. Think it through in your head, step by individual step, and you'll realise that either of these options are much more demanding with a splay.

Indeed, even without a splay producing a bench like this to a decent standard, i.e. tight joints and no racking as opposed to some clumsy bodge job, will require close attention, precise marking out, meticulous stock preparation, and careful jointing.

Good luck!

 

[RogerP]

Many years ago, when I was just starting woodworking as a hobby, I built a piece of furniture that included many angled mortice and tenon joints. I soon found that it was not a trivial task!

 

[AndyT]

Graham Haydon did a nice job on a bench like that and made an entertaining and instructive video on how to make one.

https://youtu.be/BwRcOvU6eVA

He used a housing joint, reinforced by decorative brackets.

 

[blackrodd]

I think I'd go for a stopped sliding dovetail. With splayed legs there will be a tendency for the joint to be pulled open at the lower ends of the rails and a dovetail will resist this.

Sorry! As above, Dovetail housing joint is what I meant, as in the link I posted,Top left.
I shouldn't be up so late! rodders

 

[custard]

I'm not sure about a dovetail housing at a splayed angle,

-say the splay angle is 5 degrees and the dovetail is 9 degrees, leave the dovetail in line with the leg and you've got really brittle, short grain on the inside edge of the housing piece, make the dovetail vertical and you've got really short grain on the leg. In other words there's going to be some very fragile, short grain somewhere!

-the laying out is starting to get pretty fussy, I'd be giving my pencil an extra special sharpen before tackling that one!

-the OP said he didn't have a biscuit jointer, which suggests he's pretty inexperienced as a biscuit jointer is just about the last tool an experienced man might think of using, so why burden him with loads of fancy stuff? AndyT got it dead right with his link, a basic but well designed construction using basic tools, mostly right angles and all nicely demonstrated so a newcomer can follow along step by step.

 

[skeetstar]

Thanks for responses folks, plenty of food for thought.

Custard you are right, the term 'knock up' does not represent the work that I know will go into this piece.

I originally thought that I might like the rail situated well up under the seat, but on reflection i think I will lower the rail to about half leg height and use wedged tenon joints per the picture below. That will be a lot stronger than having the rail sited up under the seat. I have made a couple of benches like this before, they presently sit either side of my kitchen table, and are still going strong 32 years after they were first assembled . I made them with splayed legs and yes they did take a lot of careful marking out when I did them. The joints are still tight, and sonme pretty heft citizens have tested their strength over the years.

Re the biscuit jointer comment, - most of my tools are hand tools, I have a router, a jig saw and a drill driver. Most of my joints are made with hand tools. I just thought that someone might suggest biscuits or dominoes to strengthen the joint so I thought I would head that off at the pass.

Anyway the benches are the project after next so plenty of time to contemplate this one.

thanks all for the input, plenty of food for thought.

 

[skeetstar]

First bench of the pair is nearly complete, just got to fix the top to the legs. The gal I am making these for wanted vertical legs, so that made it a bit easier, I went with this joint:

Question, I wasn't planning to, but does anyone think I need to 'fix' the wedge in situ by pegging it from underneath with a dowel? The timber will move over time and if it loosens it can be tapped back in till tight again. Would that be the way the more experienced folk would go?

Quite pleased with the joint, since the last time I did anything like this was before I got married, and I've not tried anything like this in 30 odd years. Price of harwood has risen a bit in the interim! Retired now and planning to do a lot more.

 

[custard]

Looks very tidy, you should be well pleased with yourself. Definitely don't peg the wedge, left loose it can be knocked in a bit more to take up any slack as and when the leg shrinks a little during the move from workshop to home.

It's all fine as it is, but if you're motivated to take it up to the next level then look up a furniture maker called Hank Gilpin. He's famous for, amongst other things, his beautifully crafted wedged through tenon joints. Or design your own wedges, think of things like a bass clef and develop that shape.

Good luck!

 

[skeetstar]

Thank you C, I had a look at the web site you mentioned, workmanshp is way way beyond anything I could achieve, but lots of ideas banked and yes he is keen on wedged joints, with lots of variations. Inspiring stuff, some of which I will arrempt to repliacate before long.

 

[monkeybiter]

look up a furniture maker called Hank Gilpin

Wow, that's a first! Just did a google image search on him and the styles displayed really 'float my boat'. Thanks Custard.

 

[Benchwayze]

That's a 'cool' looking desk and stool you made Custard. How did you know I was planning to make a compact two-piece set for my new laptop?

It's food for thought. Thanks for posting it.

Regards

J

 

[Sheffield Tony]

look up a furniture maker called Hank Gilpin

Wow, that's a first! Just did a google image search on him and the styles displayed really 'float my boat'. Thanks Custard.

A quick scroll down finds, via a Fine Woodworking article, Adrian McCurdy, who's work I've admired for a while. Some nice benches there IMHO.

 

[Mr T]

Hi

Have you considered a redesign to simplify the jointing. Below is a brief idea for a canted leg bench with cross rails at the top. The angled housing in the top rails should be easier to achieve. You could add a narrow centre rail lower down to balance the design.

Chris

 

[skeetstar]

Chris did you omit a link to the image? I can't see any pictures.
Thanks

 

[Mr T]

Hi

I checked the reply before posting and thought the image was there. Unfortunately I have deleted the sketchup file. Also I realise I had not read the thread properly and that you have finished one of the benches already so my post was irrelevant. Very nice wedged joint there. I hope she likes them.

Chris