Best (first) plane(s) for tenon fitting ?

[pompon44]

Hi,

This is my first post to this forum I've been browsing quite a lot lately. I'm a (french) beginner in woodworking and I guess I'm already on the slope ;-)
I've gathered 3 Stanley from eBay : a 4, a 40 and a 8 (the idea being to prepare rough stock only with handtools). I'm still struggling a little bit to fettle those, but that should be ok.

Now, my first project will be a real workbench (currently using a workmate which is trying to fly when I use a plane :-( ).
And I'll start with building the base of that workbench. It'll be jointed using mortises and tenons (wedged or drawbored, don't know yet, probably the later as it seems easier for a newbie).
So (finally ;-) ) to the question : do you think a 60-1/2 R can be used for adjusting the tenon fitting, and double as a "normal" block plane (which I currently miss) ? Or should I plan to buy both a block plane and a shoulder one ?

Thanks for your help,

 

[Scrit]

A joiner would use a #10 or #10-1/2 to clean-up large rebates, so it depends on how fine your future work will be (i.e. the scale, joinery or cabinetmaking). Myself I'd go for a shoulder plane and a separate block plane. The #60-1/2E you are talking about is presumably the Lie-Nielsen reworking of the Sargent #507 block/rebate plane. I found the #507 a bit too wide for comfort on shoulders, same goes for the Stanley #140 although the skew iron is a plus at times, but the big advantage of a good shoulder plane over a block/rebate is that it either has a very fine mouth or one that can be adjusted to be very fine - something not possible on a block/rebate plane, but something you may well need for good end grain performance on a shoulder

Scrit

 

[Frank D.]

I use my 60 1/2 R for tenons and love it. I find a shoulder plane too narrow and too high for this job. I usually use it for shoulders too, even though I own several shoulder planes. I prefer the way a block plane feels in my hand (I can get more precision out of it). There really is no problem due to the blade not being skewed (planing crosswise, a few slivers might come out at most, at least on the woods I've tried). In fact it's an advantage over the 140 because you can just flip it around and continue what you were doing.
The 60 1/2 R can replace a regular block planes for some jobs (shaping, chamfers for ex) but not for others (fine-tuning or smoothing a surface) because of the tracks it leaves when taking a full cut. So far the non,adjustable mouth has not been an issue for me. Scrit: I thought on end grain that the mouth opening had little or no effect, since no fibers are being lifted?

 

[Scrit]

I thought on end grain that the mouth opening had little or no effect, since no fibers are being lifted?

Possibly, but maybe I should have pointed out that the fine mouth is needed for when you're working with the grain in conventional rebates - something I do use a soulder rebate plane for. I'd also say that using a fine mouth automatically limits how heavy the cut is, but maybe this is just personal preference on weight and balance. I do prefer an adjustable mouth or a fine one for those occassions when I'm working with the grain, and a #507/#60-1/2R or a #140 simply can't oblige. A smoothing plane or a conventional block plane can both be used to clean-up tenon cheeks with the shoulder plane being used to clean-out the corners, but if you've sawn the cheeks correctly to start with it the clean-up should be minimal and might well be achieved simply with some sandpaper wrapped round a piece of MDF - most of the cheeks are going to be hidden inside the mortices so who'll see them? Another good reason for doing foxed tenons methinks, as the cheeks don't need cleaning up half as much!

Scrit

 

[Paul Kierstead]

I think a regular, every day run-of-the-mill block plane is invaluable for many many tasks. You will want one of those.

It it was me, I would go for a regular block plane first and clean up the tenons with chisels and sanding blocks. Then, maybe, a shoulder plane.

For tenon cheeks, a #140 works fabulously, but you certainly can get along without it.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Scott]

Welcome to the forum Pompon44.

I usually use a shoulder plane for the shoulders and a 60 1/2R for the cheeks if the tenon needs thinned down a wee bit. I'm sure I would manage fine with either but I happen to own both planes so I'm afraid that's maybe not too helpful

I do find (as already mentioned) that a chisel is very helpful for fitting tenons... and I'm often lazy enough to only use a chisel!

As for using the 60 1/2R as a "normal" block plane I'd agree with Frank about the track marks from the corner of the blade when using it on stock wider than the plane because you will need the blade honed square across for rebate work. Maybe you could get a second blade that you could hone with a slight camber or round the corners of (?).

... and maybe someone that knows a lot more than me will be along in a minute :lol:

If my [very bad] memory serves me correctly I think there was a similar discussion a long time ago so a search might throw up something.

Cheers
Scott

PS. Was over your way in July on holiday by the seaside. Very nice! I like the west coast

 

[Anonymous]

Best plane for tenon fitting is the LN rabbet block here

I use mine more than all my other planes (I have a few from which to choose ) as it makes a great general purpose low angle block plane too

 

[Scott]

How do you hone the blade then Tony? Is the track mark thing not a problem?

 

[pompon44]

Thanks for your answers, even if don't know if they help me ;-)

BTW, when talking about the 60.5, I was indeed referring to the LN 60-1/2 R (got the idea to suggest it as a gift that someone, like my wife, could offer me )

Frank's points about the plane tracks for a "normal-block-plane" use seemed to make sense, so, indeed Tony, could you explain how you avoid those ?

Also, if I go for a normal block plane (first, at least), I assume I should go for an adjustable-mouth one, is that right ? (or can for example the LV Apron or LN 102 be considered on par with an adjustable-mouth block plane ?)

Thanks again for your help,

Regards,

 

[Scrit]

Frank's points about the plane tracks for a "normal-block-plane" use seemed to make sense, so, indeed Tony, could you explain how you avoid those ?

One way you reduce the track marks is to gently round the corners of the blade, but that's not possible with any blade you need to work into the corner of a rebate. They need to be sharp. And the #140 (skew rebate block) can be "awkward" to sharpen and hone.....

Also, if I go for a normal block plane (first, at least), I assume I should go for an adjustable-mouth one, is that right ? (or can for example the LV Apron or LN 102 be considered on par with an adjustable-mouth block plane ?)

Different beast. I use a #103 (apron plane size) for very minor trimming and indeed frequently keep it in my apron pocket because it isn't so large or heavy that it gets in the way, but for most trimming I use a Veritas low angle block plane, which is around #9-3/4 or #18 size, but heavier and with a thicker blade. I finfd it's larger size fits my larger hands better.

Scrit

 

[Alf]

To be honest I'm wondering what folks are using a block plane for that plane tracks are a problem? Can't say I find it so to be honest. Maybe I'm not ambitious enough

One point that may be worth making, and not really appreciated until you see it, is that any block with open sides - full rebate or skew - will be weaker in that area and prone to flexing of the sole. It's not necessarily a problem, if you're careful, but 'tis in the nature of the beasts and arguably makes them less robust for ordinary block plane hurly burly. As far as adjustable mouths go, many a plane junkie round here actively prefers their fixed mouth apron plane over the adjustable version. But if you're only going to have one, well yeah, the adjustable mouth does give some more options. But it's not essential.

Fwiw, before there was this rash of rebate blocks, most people seemed to managed quite well with using a shoulder plane for both shoulders and cheeks - I did so myself. So while a rebate block is nice to have for the cheeks, and indeed if you're going to go that route I'd opt for skew myself, a shoulder plane will do the job just fine. Or as previously mentioned, chisel, rasp, abrasive round a block, file, whatever.

Cheers, Alf

Wondering if the connection's ever going to stay on long enough to actually post this. Bother and blast this damp string. :evil:

 

[Frank D.]

One way you reduce the track marks is to gently round the corners of the blade, but that's not possible with any blade you need to work into the corner of a rebate.

Agreed; there's no getting around it, a rabbeting block has to have a straight cutting edge (it's a fitting plane) like a shoulder plane.

Fwiw, before there was this rash of rebate blocks, most people seemed to managed quite well with using a shoulder plane for both shoulders and cheeks

Hey Alf, I wonder why the rash of rebate planes came after a particular rash of shoulder planes...
(running and ducking)
(Edit: slightly modified to correct my gibberish)

 

[Paul Kierstead]

And the #140 (skew rebate block) can be "awkward" to sharpen and hone.....

Ahhh....understatement. But they are the cat's meow for the job. They are damn finicky to adjust too.

 

[Anonymous]

Scott

Hone the blade in my veritas mkII guide on diamond stone then 6000 waterstone - same as all other planes. Not sure why you asked the question Scott and maybe I missed something as there is no difference between this blade and any other when sharpening (blade has no skew for instance).

Frank's points about the plane tracks for a "normal-block-plane" use seemed to make sense, so, indeed Tony, could you explain how you avoid those ?

Why would plane tracks matter when timming tenon faces? :shock:

No one uses a block plane for finishing large areas such as table tops or cabinet sides etc. which is where track marks matter.

The original request was for a plane to trim/clean tenon, well this plane is designed to do just that. I have never seen any plane tracks from it as my tenons are always less wide than the plane itself. however, I wouldn't care a hoot if they existed as the tenon is glued into a mortice and the face is not seen.
If you consider for a moment that most tenons are glued straight form the tanblesaw or bandsaw cut, how would a few thou of track matter?

The choice is yours, but to me it was always easy as this plane is made for the job and most others are not.

 

[Scrit]

Why would plane tracks matter when timming tenon faces? :shock:

They'd only really matter if you were doing a through tennon with a vertical wedge where the cheeks could show. As this is more difficult to get right than a conventional "foxed" (wedged) tennon (i.e. there's aneed to do the clean-up) then maybe that's the way to go. A smoother would probably be an easier tool to use for most of that in any case

Scrit

 

[Scott]

Hone the blade in my veritas mkII guide on diamond stone then 6000 waterstone - same as all other planes. Not sure why you asked the question Scott and maybe I missed something as there is no difference between this blade and any other when sharpening (blade has no skew for instance).

Sorry Tony, my poor/lazy writing probably. Was actually just trying to establish if you put a camber on your blade or not. Was thinking more about using the plane as a general purpose block plane (as you do use it) than specifically for tenons.

Your argument for it's use on tenons sounds OK to me. Maybe we just use block planes differently/for different purposes, hence the track marks question and drifting off the topic slightly

Cheers

 

[pompon44]

Well, the track marks (no) problem might simply be due to my poor understanding of what a "normal" block plane (vs the rabbet 60-1/2 R) is used for (remember I'm a newbie...)
My original question was twofold : if the 60-1/2 R was good to trim tenons, and I understand from the answers that it should be (as it's made for that).
And also if it could serve as a generic block plane, and there I understand it could as well, with the small caveat that it could possibly make plane tracks -which should be no problem in most occasions, if I get it correctly - and cannot be used as a small smoother because it's mouth is fixed.
Did I get it correctly ?

Thanks,

 

[Alf]

Hey Alf, I wonder why the rash of rebate planes came after a particular rash of shoulder planes...
(running and ducking)

I dunno that they did, did they? The cheaper options and so forth have come about later, but the bulk was already there before, wasn't it? No matter - we win. :wink:

My original question was twofold : if the 60-1/2 R was good to trim tenons, and I understand from the answers that it should be (as it's made for that).

Yep. Although I'd still go skew myself...

And also if it could serve as a generic block plane, and there I understand it could as well, with the small caveat that it could possibly make plane tracks -which should be no problem in most occasions, if I get it correctly

As long as the workpiece is narrower than the width of the sole, no problem. In most instances block planes do tend to get used for such work.

- and cannot be used as a small smoother because it's mouth is fixed.

Erm... I wouldn't say you couldn't use a fixed mouth plane as a smoother, in fact there's considerable argument that the "tight mouth" thing is a bit of a red herring if you have the right angle of attack, but perceived wisdom says a tight mouth for smoothing is "better", yep.

Not to entirely disagree with Tony here, but just to tweak things and say maybe it's more like "No one uses a block plane as a block plane for finishing large areas such as table tops or cabinet sides etc. which is where track marks matter." In essence it then becomes a small smoother and I'd say all regular blade honing ideas for a block plane are off at that point. It's like using a jack as a smoother - you wouldn't be using the aggressively cambered blade associated with regular jack iron use, so in essence it ceases to be a "jack".

Cheers, Alf