bench (and sharpening)

[Jacob]

Paul Sellers at it again asking why the basic bench design which was once preferred by all has been removed from the minds of modern woodworkers.
Could ask the same question about sharpening - what cosmic event occurred to obliterate common sense from these basic subjects?

 

[Dodge]

Hi Jacob, Just clicked the link and my computer froze and Norton kicked in and blocked the site advising attempted attack stopped! :shock:

 

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob, Just clicked the link and my computer froze and Norton kicked in and blocked the site advising attempted attack stopped! :shock:

It's just a link to Paul Seller's blog. It works OK on mine!
Try this one? http://paulsellers.com/woodworking-blog ... lers-blog/
Or this http://paulsellers.com/2013/01/bench-making-question/
I've edited my first post - there seemed to be lots of extra stuff in the URL for some reason.

 

[Fromey]

He does like to put the cat among the pigeons. Being a scientist, I'd like to see his evidence to justify his assertion, "Locally, this bench was used in every joiner’s shop in Britain." If so, you'd expect it to feature in every catalogue and wood working text. Is this the case? Also, the logic of his argument seems to be, if something is done universally it must be the best, which is flawed as there are numerous cases where this is not the case. The concept of innovation exists for a very good reason, if it wasn't a valid concept, then almost everything in human history has been a fraud (including the computer I'm using to type this on). Personally I think we should all go back to valve operated CRT black and white TVs because once upon a time every household had one.....

 

[James C]

My brother in law is kindly knocking a similar design together for me now. In the Joiners shop where he works all the benches are of a similar style but some have beech tops.

I still plan to add dog holes to front half because I prefer that set up for planing and morticing.

I plan on adding a Record 52 as my front vice for sawing etc.

I disagree with the points on sharpening however. Innovation is not always good but more often and not an improvement. I don't see anything wrong with the way you sharpen Jacob (it convinced me to try oil stones) but newer techniques have their merits also and if they allow people to get on with actual woodwork then that is a good thing.

 

[Jacob]

He does like to put the cat among the pigeons.

More a case of taking the cat away from the pigeons! He is trying to reintroduce a bit of common sense IMHO

Being a scientist, I'd like to see his evidence to justify his assertion, "Locally, this bench was used in every joiner’s shop in Britain." If so, you'd expect it to feature in every catalogue and wood working text. Is this the case?

It certainly features in woodwork texts, schools and training places as standard (as I know from experience) and it is widely seen in old photos of workshops

Also, the logic of his argument seems to be, if something is done universally it must be the best, which is flawed as there are numerous cases where this is not the case.

But vice versa more often - the reason for things persisting is that they are tried and tested. I doubt it'd feature in many catalogues as it is extremely easy to make.

The concept of innovation exists for a very good reason, if it wasn't a valid concept, then almost everything in human history has been a fraud (including the computer I'm using to type this on). Personally I think we should all go back to valve operated CRT black and white TVs because once upon a time every household had one.....

Except there are no particular innovations in most/all of the alternative bench designs - they are all throwbacks - people struggling away with wooden screws and leg vices etc. Stuff I've never seen except in museums or woodwork magazines!
The big innovation in bench design was the Record vice.

newer techniques have their merits also and if they allow people to get on with actual woodwork then that is a good thing.

They may have merits but allowing people to get on with actual woodwork certainly isn't one of them - they are slow and inconvenient compared to the quick swipe on oil-stone and strop.

 

[Jake]

[Except there are no particular innovations in most/all of the alternative bench designs - they are all throwbacks - people struggling away with wooden screws and leg vices etc. Stuff I've never seen except in museums or woodwork magazines!
The big innovation in bench design was the Record vice.

Record-type vices are, as I understand it, much more hard to find and expensive in the States.

 

[yetloh]

I assume Jacob is snowed in and has nothing to do so has got back on his worn out hobbyhorse. It's all been said so many times before. What is the point?

Jim

 

[siggy_7]

The best book I've read on the subject is that by Christopher Schwartz. The image in the blog post looks like a take on the Old English style of workbench that Schwartz talks about in his book. I think the main reason that the English style has been squeezed out by more open designs is that the large aprons get in the way of a lot of clamping operations to the top, although they do provide a good clamping surface for working on edges of boards/doors and give good stiffness for the weight of material (Schwartz describes the large apron style as "an evolutionary dead-end"). I prefer the very popular Roubo style bench; as well as being a great bench to work on they are very beautiful things. More investment perhaps and not so justifiable as a business purchase, but as a hobby woodworker there's no reason not to buy things just because I want them and working with them gives me pleasure.

 

[Jake]

I assume Jacob is snowed in and has nothing to do so has got back on his worn out hobbyhorse. It's all been said so many times before. What is the point?

I think there is an interesting point about fashions being set over the pond - the Record vice, the Clifton thread...

 

[Jacob]

The best book I've read on the subject is that by Christopher Schwartz. The image in the blog post looks like a take on the Old English style of workbench that Schwartz talks about in his book.

The image in the blog post is a take on the ubiquitous British style of bench which was (still is?) more or less standard everywhere in Britain (and elsewhere perhaps?). They've been around a lot longer than Scwarz's book (which wouldn't be the first reference source for many people anyway).
I am just interested in why they have been expunged from the record so to speak. Fashion I suppose, and the break in tradition due to the contraction of the hand-making timber industry.

 

[marcus]

I've used that sort of bench and didn't find it had any particular advantages. In fact I found it a PITA. Much prefer my own setup which I have found makes things easier and quicker in every way. People are different I guess, they approach things in different ways, and different ways can get equally good and efficient results :shock:.

As for sharpening, I've known some phenomenal woodworkers (ie people who make a living making high end and demanding cabinetry, lutherie and boatbuilding) and not one of them has used Jacob's sharpening method. The only people I have seen sharpening like this are site carpenters (where it makes a lot of sense as you may not have ready access to a grinding wheel). Which is not to say that there's anything terribly wrong with either way; there isn't.

The only thing that counts, really, is the quality (and economic viability if you're doing it for a living) of the work produced. If those two boxes are ticked then everything else is hot air.

 

[Dangermouse]

I do belive if you had 100 woodworkers in a room and asked them which was the best or favorite bench you would get at least 100 different answers and I'm sure you'd get the same with sharpening ideas. I'm not a fan of this type of bench for cabinet making, I think it more suited to joinery. for doing fine woodwork I personally belive you need an end vice with bench dogs and much better front vice arrangements or even a couple of front vices of different types. The well in the centre I found when I worked with this type of bench for a few years was a pain in the ***, especially if you wanted to have a chair etc on the bench top standing on its legs. I prefer a plain top with no well at all. But at the end of the day you can make anything on anything, even the kitchen table. The thing is which suits you the best and as I say thats totally down to the user, not some dogma about its got to be the best because I think it is.

As to sharpening, I use a mixture of scary sharp on a granite slab, followed by a couple of oil stones or scary sharp down to 2000 followed by natural stone or diamond plate and oil stone or a mixture off all the above. Depends on what I'm sharpening, how much time I have and what mood I'm in. So there !

 

[Jacob]

.......I've known some phenomenal woodworkers (ie people who make a living making high end and demanding cabinetry, lutherie and boatbuilding) and not one of them has used Jacob's sharpening method. ......

It's not my sharpening method - it's just what was normal until a few years ago, with high end workers too. As was the trad bench; yes not for everybody but it's a bloody good place to start, being easy to make and very effective as a general purpose bench.

 

[marcus]

It's not my sharpening method

You've made it your own :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

As was the trad bench; yes not for everybody but it's a bloody good place to start, being easy to make and very effective as a general purpose bench.

What would be helpful, Jacob, would be some pictures of how you hold the work on your trad bench when undertaking the numerous operations involved in cabinetmaking. I have found a very basic bench, such as the type you favour, seriously lacking and have built and modified my bench so that it is far more versatile in the way that I can hold work.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[JonnyD]

It's not my sharpening method

You've made it your own :wink:

There are followers see here http://www.closegrain.com/2010/04/grims ... d.html?m=1

Cheers

Jon

 

[Jacob]

As was the trad bench; yes not for everybody but it's a bloody good place to start, being easy to make and very effective as a general purpose bench.

What would be helpful, Jacob, would be some pictures of how you hold the work on your trad bench when undertaking the numerous operations involved in cabinetmaking. I have found a very basic bench, such as the type you favour, seriously lacking and have built and modified my bench so that it is far more versatile in the way that I can hold work.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

You add whatever bits n bobs you require. Mines double sided with two vices, one with a dog. I'd tend to use this dog against a lath nailed on or against stops formed from dropping lengths of scrap across the well e.g. a length of 2x3" etc.
I've one 1 1/2" square dog near one end against which I plane, or rest a lath against it with the other end pinned, as a longer stop e.g. for a wider board. I've got a few short sash cramps and these work as hold downs. There's also a proper hold own set in to the top.. The apron is very useful for clamping stuff or just for using a clamp as an end support. I also use saw horses or an ammo box as end supports for bigger stuff held in the vice. There are 4no 4"x8"x8" blocks to slip under the feet if I wanted a higher bench. There's a dowel plate set in at one end. Various holes in which pegs can be dropped as stops. etc etc. Could go on all night!
Basically no problem holding anything; it's not at all basic once you start adding little mods to suit your purpose. There are lots of nail/screw holes all over it but as long as these are tidy and below surface level they aren't a problem.

PS then there are add-ons such as bench hooks. I've got a short pair and a long pair. I sometimes set these on opposite sides of the beam so that a long piece can be cranked firmly against them etc.

 

[James C]

yes not for everybody but it's a bloody good place to start, being easy to make and very effective as a general purpose bench.

I can agree with this, just not the parts earlier on when Oilstone sharpening is the quickest, easiest method. Like you said not for everybody. Waterstones cut really quickly and aren't much of a problem time wise if you keep organised.

 

[bugbear]

- it's just what was normal until a few years ago, with high end workers too.

Not the case, despite your repeated vigorous assertions.

BugBear