Beginner's saw question

[Smudger]

Sorry to keep on asking what must be to most of you dumb questions, but I'm on a steep learning curve here!

I have just started working with hand tools, and I am trying out some joints. I got my Axminster order today - a Victor tenon saw. So I tried out a bridle joint in softwood.

I planed it all flat (ish) - pleased with that and the £10.50 #5 - and then marked it out. Then I thought about it and marked it out again with the mortise the same size as my smallest chisel...

I made the cheek cuts with the new tenon saw fine - it's quite heavy and although it cuts slowly I can imagine being quite accurate with a bit of practice. But I got nowhere on the rip cuts, and ended up using a cheapo pullsaw, which did quite a good job.

Question - am I doing something wrong, or do I need a dovetail rip saw? And what is the general opinion of the Victor saws, given that my style is French rustique primitif?

Part of my thinking is that I am going to set up a workshop at a holiday home in France, and instead of filling it with electrical equipment which will cost a fortune and be a temptation to thieves, I will make up a toolbox that I can take back and forth with me. That means hand work, which means a lot of practice. Also it's fun, and hopefully as I get better (in my health) it will be a little bit of exercise.

 

[Robert Rozaieski]

You definately want a rip tooth for cutting that joint, but I would not suggest a dovetail saw to cut a tenon/bridle as the teeth will be too small, clog quickly and therefore cut slowly. You want a rip saw with less teeth per inch for cutting tenons. In my experience, softwood also requires even less TIP as this type of timber tends to clog more than a hardwood variety. My dovetail saw is rip at 18 TPI and is fine for cuts up to about 3/4" thick. My other rip backsaw for cutting tenons is around 13 or 14 TPI and it still clogs a little on wider stuff. For hardwood, I think 12 TPI would be ideal for most furniture sized tenons. If you use mostly softwoods, you may want to go a little coarser, maybe 10-11 TPI.

 

[lurker]

Smudger,

Bear in mind I know next to nowt.

Try all the things you have done so far on a bit of decent ish wood. I know you thought better to practice on something unimportant but...... I've been there.

I've found my frustrations at sawing, planing, chiseling etc are far less with better quality wood. As far a wood is concerned forget B&Q Wickes etc.

 

[Smudger]

Thanks both. Good suggestions - what wood would you suggest? Most of what I have laying about is 'Deal' - not even any pine at the moment, or some very well seasoned oak.

 

[JesseM]

Thanks both. Good suggestions - what wood would you suggest? Most of what I have laying about is 'Deal' - not even any pine at the moment, or some very well seasoned oak.

Pine is fine, but challenging especially when learning. I can definitely do a better job with it now than when I started. Poplar would probably be a good cheap hardwood. Its typically soft and easy to work, and doesn't suffer from the cracking chipping problems that pine has.

Poplar is cheap here at least ($1.92/bf) :?

 

[lurker]

I've used "pine" in Merica from their B&Q like barns.
Helped a friend build an extension.

If it (that quality & density) was sold here at the price there, I'd be a happy bloke.
It ain't the "softwood" you get over in the UK.

Not sure if UK Poplar is same stuff as USA, either

 

[JesseM]

I've used "pine" in Merica from their B&Q like barns.
Helped a friend build an extension.

If it (that quality & density) was sold here at the price there, I'd be a happy bloke.
It ain't the "softwood" you get over in the UK.

Not sure if UK Poplar is same stuff as USA, either

I know what you mean. At least in the south we have SYP (southern yellow pine) and white pine and various other firs and what not. The SYP is hard, but can crack and chip.

The poplar most common here is yellow tulip poplar. It has a greenish tint to the wood in places, but turns a nice brown with age.

 

[Colin C]

Lurker

Popular is the same as the US and will be good for you, plus it is cheap

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Sorry to keep on asking what must be to most of you dumb questions, but I'm on a steep learning curve here!

They are not at all dumb questions.

I made the cheek cuts with the new tenon saw fine - it's quite heavy and although it cuts slowly I can imagine being quite accurate with a bit of practice. But I got nowhere on the rip cuts, and ended up using a cheapo pullsaw, which did quite a good job.

I think there may be some terminology issues here. In almost all cases, the cheek cut is a rip cut; that is, the cheek cut is along the grain, not cross grain. Your tenon saw is supposed to be filed rip out of the box, and should do ok to excellent (depending on how well the factory did...).

The shoulder cut is cross grain, and will fustrate your tenon saw some, but still shouldn't be awful. However, if you are using construction grain wood and it is very wet (normal for that grade), it might have quite a bit of a harder time.

hmmm... going by Ian Kirby's article, I see that cheek could refer the the mortised bit in a bridle joint in the UK (here it would be what is called the 'face' in Ian's diagram), but would still typically be a rip cut ...

 

[Smudger]

Paul - it was the rip cuts I was having difficulty with, the cross cuts were OK.

This is the saw:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Victor-Tenon-Saws-23597.htm

at 14tpi.

I'll try to get some poplar. Perhaps I won't get such wavy results from the marking gauge, either!

 

[George_N]

From the info on the Ax website, only the 12 tpi saw is a rip. The others, presumably, are crosscut (unless there is another flavour) and will therefore be slower when making rip cuts. Looks like you need another tool :lol:

 

[mr]

Perhaps I won't get such wavy results from the marking gauge, either!

Wavy results? I'll wager your gauge has a pin. File it flat so its more of a blade than a pin.
Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Kierstead]

From the info on the Ax website, only the 12 tpi saw is a rip. The others, presumably, are crosscut (unless there is another flavour) and will therefore be slower when making rip cuts. Looks like you need another tool :lol:

Hmmm ... you could very well be right. It says

"There is a choice of four lengths, all with 14 teeth per inch, and a 12", 12tpi rip cut."

Which could imply the 14 tpi ones are crosscut, which would be pretty damn stupid.

If it is filed crosscut, I'd return it; the manufacturer does not deserver the considerable sum the saw cost for a completely inappropriately filed saw.

 

[Smudger]

OK - not sure why that is stupid - how would I know the difference between a cross and a rip set?

 

[bugbear]

If it is filed crosscut, I'd return it; the manufacturer does not deserver the considerable sum the saw cost for a completely inappropriately filed saw.

Since "tenon saw" is normally (in this modern era) simply a synonym for "medium sized back saw", I think that's putting it a little strong.

Or, (elaborating) what would be the "proper name" of the "proper saw" for the shoulder cut, which is a cross-grain cut?

BugBear

 

[Smudger]

Now I'm completely confused. I was expecting a tenon saw to be a compromise for cutting the cross and the rip cuts, only needing different saws when I get on to dovetails - in fact I was planning to get a rip dovetail saw next, because of the greater accuracy needed.

I'll try some more amenable timber, and lots of practice. It's probably a case of operator error.

What is the considered opinion on these Victor saws?

 

[Paul Kierstead]

If it is filed crosscut, I'd return it; the manufacturer does not deserver the considerable sum the saw cost for a completely inappropriately filed saw.

Since "tenon saw" is normally (in this modern era) simply a synonym for "medium sized back saw", I think that's putting it a little strong.

Or, (elaborating) what would be the "proper name" of the "proper saw" for the shoulder cut, which is a cross-grain cut?

Well, just plain back saw would probably do. Or maybe carcass saw, which seems somewhat generic. But tenon saw? Give me a break. A tenon saw that can't actually cut tenons very well is pretty ridiculous, regardless of modern trends.

 

[JesseM]

Now I'm completely confused. I was expecting a tenon saw to be a compromise for cutting the cross and the rip cuts, only needing different saws when I get on to dovetails - in fact I was planning to get a rip dovetail saw next, because of the greater accuracy needed.

I'll try some more amenable timber, and lots of practice. It's probably a case of operator error.

What is the considered opinion on these Victor saws?

Typically you would want a rip and xcut depending on funds of course. I would say the rip is more desirable to have for cutting tenons since it excels at cutting with the grain. The xcut is good at other things aside from the tenon shoulder cuts. Its sometimes handier to use than a miter.

No opinion on the Victor, but I have some PAX tenon saws and they are decent. They have 14" xcut and rip versions. I would guess that they are available in the UK since they made there. But I could be wrong. :lol:

 

[Smudger]

The PAX and Victor saws look like they may be the same tools rebranded, both are made by E Garlick (good name for Pratchett fans) and they are visually identical, even to the gold blocking on the handle. The Lynx range is slightly below the Victor range in price, the PAX slightly above. Is this correct?

 

[bugbear]

Well, just plain back saw would probably do. Or maybe carcass saw, which seems somewhat generic. But tenon saw? Give me a break. A tenon saw that can't actually cut tenons very well is pretty ridiculous, regardless of modern trends.

I'm afraid the modern trend is to call a medium back saw, a tenon saw.

This argument is more about names than functionality, I feel, especially in the context of a "non-tool-collecting" woodworker who is only ever likely to have (at most) 2 backsaws (medium and small).

BugBear