Beginners chisel sharpening help

[D_W]

If I were to get something to do this is there anything better than a bench grinder that doesn’t cost silly money?

There isn't anything better than a bench grinder with a coarse wheel, period. As others have mentioned, a 6" grinder with a coarse wheel is fine. It doesn't have to be an expensive wheel, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, it just needs to be coarse. And you need something to dress it (the 10 quid T-shaped diamond wheel dressers are fantastic).

You don't need a grinder, but if you want to set up and maintain tools, well, I'd get rid of a table saw before I'd let go of my grinder.

 

[Bm101]

Without getting too far away from the original intent of the thread I'm going to ask a question I have been wondering about recently. My first grinder was a lidlaldi twin wheel affair. No snobbery. It works great/perfect/fine for the invested price. Then there was a fella on here that kept buying nice gear, some of it really top end stuff. Good Guy Experienced Members told him to resist but that was his thing I guess. In the end he sold it all after an accident. I met him and he seemed like a nice guy but anyway.
I got a record power grinder off him and a QS No 4 that I shouldn't have bought but now I have it... (fight me for it. (hammer) ) Again, I wouldn't have paid new prices. Nearly all my tools are bought used. This is a hobby for me. I'm not paying my mortgage on the back of it like some on here are.
DW knows far more than me.
But there is as sliding scale that resonates between user skill and end result.
The difference in practical use of the Record versus the lidlaldi jobber is immense unless you have the skills and knowledge to get the most out of the cheaper grinder. And a decent tool rest.
Worth bearing in mind.
So. Back to the original intent. My now redundant lidlaldi grinder.
Can I make a polisher out of it?
If i strip the wheels off can I replace with material polishing wheels fairly easily?
Cheers now.
Chris

 

[MikeG.]

....... Can I make a polisher out of it?
If i strip the wheels off can I replace with material polishing wheels fairly easily?

Yes. Dead easy. I put a wire brush on one end of mine.......a 2 minute job, with about the most difficult element being not dropping the screws.

 

[Bm101]

Thanks Mike. I'll take a closer look at it.
Back on topic!

 

[D_W]

Without getting too far away from the original intent of the thread I'm going to ask a question I have been wondering about recently. My first grinder was a lidlaldi twin wheel affair. No snobbery. It works great/perfect/fine for the invested price. Then there was a fella on here that kept buying nice gear, some of it really top end stuff. Good Guy Experienced Members told him to resist but that was his thing I guess. In the end he sold it all after an accident. I met him and he seemed like a nice guy but anyway.
I got a record power grinder off him and a QS No 4 that I shouldn't have bought but now I have it... (fight me for it. (hammer) ) Again, I wouldn't have paid new prices. Nearly all my tools are bought used. This is a hobby for me. I'm not paying my mortgage on the back of it like some on here are.
DW knows far more than me.
But there is as sliding scale that resonates between user skill and end result.
The difference in practical use of the Record versus the lidlaldi jobber is immense unless you have the skills and knowledge to get the most out of the cheaper grinder. And a decent tool rest.
Worth bearing in mind.
So. Back to the original intent. My now redundant lidlaldi grinder.
Can I make a polisher out of it?
If i strip the wheels off can I replace with material polishing wheels fairly easily?
Cheers now.
Chris

Nicer is definitely nicer. I started with a ryobi grinder, but bought a baldor grinder out of principle and really nothing else (full speed). I no longer set the rests on it, they're just at 90 degrees.

In terms of speed, I can work - refreshing hollows - with a coarse gray wheel on a cheap grinder just as fast. 30 seconds maybe, no water. The learning curve is a little bit steeper, but as long as the wheel surface is dressed, the time is about the same.

I mention that the cheap is functionally as good because I resent that when I started woodworking, most of the items that cost 10x as much were peddled as time savers and result improvers, but in the middle of a good session, our focus will never be on the grinder or whether or not we have the newest waterstone that cuts the fastest and finest both at the same time.

I kind of have what I want, but don't begrudge other people with the time and money the adventure of buying and trying stuff, though. I'd like a 2x72 variable speed grinder if anyone wants to give one away - and a shop fireplace.

 

[Bm101]

Agree completely David. I'm just a beginner (more I learn the more I realise I know so little), and I've fallen down my fair share of newbie traps. More than most maybe. Think we're singing from the same songsheet though really I think.
I've no doubt it's possible for a skilled and experienced user to get fantastic results with the absolute bare bones of a tool kit. People have been doing that forever. And nearly all the stuff I've learned in the past couple of years has highlighted this over and over and over again. More I learn the more I realise I need to simplify what I do, not get bogged down in minutiae and distraction. Took me a while to realise though.
I rarely buy anything now. My name is Chris I haven't bought a tool in 27 days.... :-"
But it's the idea you can skip a step in the learning process that is appealing. Why would you not want to jump ahead? But you can't skip the process. You can't buy experience. Tempting though until you know better.
My first ever post on here was about trying to fit a pmv-11 iron to my first old jumble sale 4 1/2 Record. My first proper plane.
I was trying to fit the iron upside down. I'm not even pulling your leg here... And I'm not embarrassed. Start of a learning curve I have never regretted starting.
Never did get round to fitting it and I'm not sure I ever will if I'm honest. I thought I'd bought a solution to inexperience. Turned out I'd have to learn how to sharpen anyway. :shock: And O1 it turns out is quite a good steel. Who knew. I's almost like people have been doing this stuff for a while before I got involved. :shock: Previous to that I wasn't consciously aware there were really any different steel alloys. Nowadays I sometimes make my own irons. From stock, not from scratch I hasten to add.


My point really was that the jump in ease of use and end results is normally exaggerated because it's user skill that makes the main difference. An expensive new chisel will come better finished and maybe a better steel quality than a duff modern one. But with a little knowledge you can buy it's equal for £2 with a bit of searching on any given Sunday at a bootsale and a bit of looking. But you need that knowledge and that comes at the price of experience.

In the case of grinders specifically, I'd say that at least for me the jump from my lidlaldi one to the Record one with the much bigger white wheel was worth the price hike especially second hand. It also came with a veritas jig thrown in. Again a bit of a game changer for an amateur. All of a sudden you have upped your game in terms of repeatable accuracy. You're casting off doubt with each footstep toward consistency.
No worries for a seasoned pro. Huge advantage for a hobby worker.
At my level of experience it made a big change to my routine. So sometimes the tools do make a difference.
I wish it was two/three speed though. :wink:
Anyway.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[D_W]

I'd imagine that rest was a huge game changer, just by itself.

The first grinder I ever bought (the ryobi) - ok, it's only one of two, but - it had a two-piece rest that could be adjusted for angle. It was aluminum (the rest), but I remember larry williams saying that a beginner should have a grinder with a two-piece rest that can be adjusted for angle as well as distance from the wheel.

That probably has a great deal to do with why I didn't really experience that much of a difference from ryobi to baldor (the rests on the baldor are cast).

George Wilson told me something that i probably should've followed - he uses a cheap grinder from sears because for a long time, sears made grinders with a flat face on the front of them. You get access to the left and right side of the wheel without interference from the barrel shape of the motor. A lot of those craftsman tools of that era were cheaply made and underpowered, but primary bevel grinding isn't exactly a brute force operation. The flat face allows a user to grind something like a pocket knife or draw knife more easily. I'll live without it!

The coarseness of the wheel is the biggest must on top of some kind of decent rest. I started with two white wheels - 100 grit. They made tremendous amounts of heat. Followed that up with a $10 36 grit gray wheel and a T shaped diamond dresser (another $10 or $14 here or something like that) and that was the end of the heat issues. Again thanks to something larry or someone else said years ago - dress the wheel often and before there are problems. The wheel was horribly out of balance, and i replaced it as part of an order from mcmaster carr with two brown aluminum oxide wheels here (which are like stepping up from a citroen 250 to a ford fiesta, but they were better balanced and had bushings).

I think Derek may be the one who was responsible for luring me into putting a CBN wheel on my grinder, which is a lovely piece of gear. I can be much more careless since heat travels through the CBN into the wheel instead of being left in the tool. But the total time in the shop and the number of tools burned is not really different than the brown wheel, and i'm not sure if I'd spend the money again if it were today (I've made that money back several times over regrinding kamisoris, though - I'm sure I'd end up there given that I've got a few dozen more to regrind, and each regrind nets me about $30. If it was just stanley plane irons - maybe not).

The very key part of this for every beginner is that good grinding makes it so that the stone speed or type doesn't matter at all. I prefer slower stones now, there are more cycles between grinds and less *******izing of the bevel with harder and slower stones.

 

[adt]

So, having had a bit of a look about I’ve found the grinders linked below which are all suitably cheap. I’m currently leaning towards the Axminster one but would be happy to see which people would recommend for someone who has never really used a bench grinder before.

If anyone know as anything better that isn’t too much more money (like this?)I could probably justify the extra as it is something that is, hopefully, going to last me a good few years.

Axminster Hobby Series AHBGDL Wide Stone Grinder

Silverline 612519 DIY 240W Bench Grinder And Belt Sander

Guild 150W Bench Grinder

 

[MikeG.]

I'd get the one with a belt sander. You'll use that more than the grinder, I reckon.

 

[D_W]

So, having had a bit of a look about I’ve found the grinders linked below which are all suitably cheap. I’m currently leaning towards the Axminster one but would be happy to see which people would recommend for someone who has never really used a bench grinder before.

If anyone know as anything better that isn’t too much more money (like this?)I could probably justify the extra as it is something that is, hopefully, going to last me a good few years.

Axminster Hobby Series AHBGDL Wide Stone Grinder

Silverline 612519 DIY 240W Bench Grinder And Belt Sander

Guild 150W Bench Grinder

150 watts is a bit anemic, but I'd get that one of the three. The wide stone grinder is a strange contraption that will give you a wide wheel that's too fine in grit and then expensive to replace unless you just put a narrow wheel on it. It's light weight, and the rests aren't ideal, but you can make or buy a better rest for it.

46 grit is as fine as I'd go on a grinder wheel. The finer wheels are for people grinding turning gouges.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd get the one with a belt sander. You'll use that more than the grinder, I reckon.

:lol: I've had one for years - I bought it thinking the belt would useful but I've not worn the belt out yet. My 40mm wheeled one gets probably ten times the use of my other three grinders put together.

 

[D_W]

I almost did the same (instead of a separate kalamazoo belt grinder and bench grinder, almost bought a combo dayton machine). I'd probably avoid the belt because there will be things you want to do with a belt grinder that these won't do due to all of the guards, but I never use my belt grinder (small one - 1x48) for primary bevels because it's not as accurate as a wheel and a hollow.

A belt grinder with a platen and not much interference around it is great for small toolmaking, though. Belts for a 1x48 can be had for less than a dollar in the states. A lot of the smaller combo grinders have odd sizes that I can't find locally (and it's nice to have the second wheel to have a different crown or to do heavier grinding on unhardened steel without worrying about wheel geometry changing).

 

[Bm101]

....... Can I make a polisher out of it?
If i strip the wheels off can I replace with material polishing wheels fairly easily?

Yes. Dead easy. I put a wire brush on one end of mine.......a 2 minute job, with about the most difficult element being not dropping the screws.

Cheers Mike. Was literally 2 mins. Thanks for the heads up. Need to get some mops and compound and I have a new free machine! Well, not free of course but no longer a redundant bit of kit. So nearly free. Ok. Not free. At all in fact. But new and exciting. A bit.
*the crowd gasps in amazed bemusement*

If people were doing this and they knew what they were about might they recommend two different types of mop and different compound grades or two identical mops and a different compound on each. Brass/ bronze and O1 tool steel are all I really mess about with if that helps.
Last question is there an alternate use for the old discs before I stick them in a drawer for 20 years?
Sorry for the interruption Adt.

 

[adt]

No worries there Bm.

So, after all the replies on here (thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback) it looks like I will be taking none of the three options that I posted before. I will instead be relieving my dad of his “spare” grinder that I found out about over dinner tonight. From the sounds of it I’m not expecting much more than a basic unit along the lines of the guild one but it sounds like that should be more than enough for what I need right now. If it turns out I really enjoy grinding things I can always come look for something fancier later on.

 

[D_W]

No worries there Bm.

So, after all the replies on here (thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback) it looks like I will be taking none of the three options that I posted before. I will instead be relieving my dad of his “spare” grinder that I found out about over dinner tonight. From the sounds of it I’m not expecting much more than a basic unit along the lines of the guild one but it sounds like that should be more than enough for what I need right now. If it turns out I really enjoy grinding things I can always come look for something fancier later on.

Perfect.

 

[MikeG.]

..... is there an alternate use for the old discs before I stick them in a drawer for 20 years?......

Stick them in a drawer for 20 years, then chuck them away a week before you find a use for them. You know, in the usual way.

 

[Bm101]

Perfect Solution. :wink:
If i could proffer one idea. Don't use it on your tools to start with. Get some scrap metal of a similar size/thickness. An old window arm etc would do. As long as it's steel. Get an idea for the feel of grinding steel with that. Heat build up, resistance, etc etc.
Anyway. Good luck. Sounds perfect. :wink:
Regards
Chris

 

[Jacob]

The various bits of training I did (school and elsewhere) all banned use of the grinder. Even for serious remedial work of badly damaged edges - in inexperienced hands it's the quickest way to make them even worse and waste a lot of steel. Also they tend to look a mess - "nibbled by rats" :lol:
I've got one but went over to belt sander , and then Sorby Pro-edge. Both relatively ***** proof, faster, neater and cooler.
Belt sander prob is entrapped dust can catch fire with the sparks, so must be cleaned out with a blast of air and not left unattended at first after use. Pro edge is better, thanks to open structure - but sparks still an issue with all power grinding.
But for routine use I don't need either - freehand and double sided oil stone is enough. Saves a fortune!

 

[woodbloke66]

I've got one but went over to belt sander , and then Sorby Pro-edge. Both relatively ***** proof, faster, neater and cooler.
Belt sander prob is entrapped dust can catch fire with the sparks, so must be cleaned out with a blast of air and not left unattended at first after use. Pro edge is better, thanks to open structure - but sparks still an issue with all power grinding.

I had a ProEdge and was always worried about the horrendous amount of grinding dust and metal debris generated by a belt sander, all of which is potentially going to get trapped in the 'tubes'. The recently introduced Ax version apparently uses a fire proof (!) hose to extract the grinder debris. Having tried both systems, I now prefer the slower, water cooled Tormek and although probably one of the most expensive ways of removing steel, it does at least circumvent this issue - Rob

 

[Lons]

I will instead be relieving my dad of his “spare” grinder

Hmmm... sound just like my son who "found a use" for my spare grinder as well as an ancient Record wetstone grinder. :lol:

It's the toolbank of dad he says! :roll: