Be honest - can I do it?

[FrenchIan]

Gentlemen, may I ask your advice - it may stop me making a silly decision.

I'm going to install a new L-shaped kitchen, with wooden worktops.

I shouldn't have problems with fitting the units - I've installed several kitchens in my time. The problem lies with joining the two lengths of worktop. To get the almost invisible mitre joint needs a router and jig, and I've never used a router. All the other usual power tools, but not a router.

Normally, I'd call for an experienced joiner to come and do the necessary, but here in France, good tradesmen are scarce (and busy). More to the point, mitred worktops are not, currently, much used, so there may not be that much experience out there.....

Hence, I'm toying with Plan B which is: buy a router, jig and several cutters, and do it myself. It shouldn't be too difficult, I tell myself. I know how to handle powertools, I've fitted loads of worktops, and if I get the two lengths extra long, I can have several shots at the mitre before I cut the other ends to length.

Please, be brutally honest. Has Plan B a cat-in-hell's chance of succeeding?

Thank you

 

[Argee]

Wooden worktops are best butt joined, NOT cut with a mason's mitre, so no jig required. You could cut the butterfly bolt pockets with a forstner bit and a saw, but if the worktops have a bevel all round, like the annoying ones from IKEA, then you'll probably need a router to remove that accurately at the join site (otherwise you'll have a "V" at the butt join). Some photo examples are here if that helps.

JasonB has fitted many more wooden tops than I have and I'm sure he will have some advice for you.

Ray.

 

[9fingers]

Brutal honesty here we come!

Part of me says of course you can do it. But then again if you have to ask us then perhaps you are not up to the job?. If you can't judge your own abilities how the hell can we do it?

It is not rocket science. Practice on some cheaper materials first.
If you are buying a router, a jig and cutters (a new one per joint tends to be recommended) then I guess your budget might run to carrying the risk of writing off a length of worktop. You could possibly sell your jig on Flea-bay afterwards.

Bob

 

[mr]

If my experience of routers is anything to go by then the answer to your question is a resounding No.

If you haven't used one before you will not be able to buy a router, take it out of the box and get acceptable results from it.

While you can still make mistakes with hand tools a router makes those mistakes at a rate of knots. There is no time to think when it all goes wrong and no second chance with a router.

Cheers Mike

 

[mister henderson]

As Argee points out, what you need to do is to make sure that the meeting faces are square (ie no chamfer, bull nose etc) and then make a butt joint.

Where you may need a router, though, is when you prepare the meeting faces. They will need to be straight and clean, devoid of edge chips etc, and the best way to prepare them (especially the end grain piece) is with a router running along a straight edge.

Even a cheap 1/2" router will be able to do this, although if it has a round base make sure you don't let it turn as you run it along the straight edge because if you do and the cutter isn't concentric with the base the edge produced will not be straight.

So, fit the long piece first, then bring the end grain piece up to it so you can scribe it to get the correct angle (which may well not be 90 degrees) then cut the end to the correct angle with a circular saw, leaving a couple of mm for trimming, then trim these off with a router with a 2" long 1/2" cutter set to the depth required to trim the whole edge in one pass.

If you see what I mean

 

[Oryxdesign]

Buy a router and give it a go. You don't need to do a mason mitre so that'll save you some money. The best way to ensure the side and end of the worktop is square in the joint (so it lays flat when bolted together) is with a router and a square edge. Keyholing with a forstner bit works well and is fast. PM me if you want to talk it through on the phone.

 

[TheTiddles]

Could you do this with a tool you have never used, maybe, if you're lucky. It may take a few attempts.

However as has been pointed out you don't need the complicated joint geometry, what you need is a very sharp square edge, which if you are a decent woodworker you should be able to do with a plane and carpenter's square. If you get the board 6" longer than required, practice on the edge, once, maybe even several times, then cut to the correct length and repeat, you can tailor the fit by hand with some time and effort and a decent block plane. The pockets for the bolts can be routed with somebody else's router or done the old fashioned way with chisels and saws.

Aidan

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Ian
Welcome to the forum

The reason why a mitre is not a good idea (not just for you, but for anyone) is that even if you do manage to cut it nice a cleanly and tight today, it won't be tight tomorrow. A solid wood worktop which is, say, 650mm wide is going to shrink by several mm over its width. This will cause the mitre to open up and it will do so at the front where it is most obvious, too.

Stick with a square joint and you will be a lot happier with the results, I think.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul Chapman]

For making straight cuts with a router, fit a large, square sub-base. It makes the stability of the router far better and provides a nice, long, straight base to run along your straight edge. You can buy one like this

Or make one like this from MDF

Helps to prevent annoying errors like the router tipping or moving off line as you start and end the cut.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[ike]

Hi Ian,

You can practise many times getting a good joint without wasting much worktop, as you only need to skim a mm or two each time.

cheers,

ike

 

[Smudger]

As well as the router and a very decent cutter, I'd splash out on a straghtedge clamp, as discussed elsewhere. Then, as Paul says, Bob's your uncle. Definitely doable.

 

[FrenchIan]

OK, if it's a relatively simple butt joint that's needed, it's looking do-able. I think I may go for it.

As for which router to get, Scr*wf*x are selling an Erbauer - 1/2 inch and 2100W - for £70. Would that plus some decent cutters (Trend, say) do me?

As you've all pointed out, I may destroy a section of work top before I get it right, but how else will I learn?

Thanks for the encouragement

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Ian,

If you've not used a router before, there are lots of useful hints and tips here http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/rou ... _tips.html

One particularly important point is to take several light cuts, advancing the depth of cut a few mm at a time, rather than to try to cut the full depth in one go.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Smudger]

A good source for cutters is Wealden

http://www.wealdentool.com/

I don't know anything about the Erbauer (someone will) but I have seen a lot of routers quite cheap in French Bricosheds.

And yes, buy extra and practice. It's a lot of fun! I'm still in the wood butchery stage...

I would advise a straightedge clamp, though, as it makes setting up a great deal easier, and you can use the router and straightedge as a jointer if needs be. With a little care you can make a template for the distance between the centre line of the cutter and the edge of the base, which makes setting the straightedge much more straightforward. It is also useful when dimensioning sheet materials using a jigsaw, which I seem to be doing a lot at the moment.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ian
How many routers do you want to buy? :?

If you want to do just this job, well OK. But if you intend to do much more woodwork, why not put that 70 quid towards a good router and enjoy the benefits of a good machine for a long time, rather than putting up with the limitations of an entry level machine for a while, getting frustrated with it and then going out to spend more money on a decent machine?

It may sound harsh, but it seems to me that you are planning to waste £70. :shock:

Cheers
Steve

 

[Oryxdesign]

Ian
How many routers do you want to buy? :?

If you want to do just this job, well OK. But if you intend to do much more woodwork, why not put that 70 quid towards a good router and enjoy the benefits of a good machine for a long time, rather than putting up with the limitations of an entry level machine for a while, getting frustrated with it and then going out to spend more money on a decent machine?

It may sound harsh, but it seems to me that you are planning to waste £70. :shock:

Cheers
Steve

That sounds right to me, what abot a B &Q triton for £100?

 

[Argee]

It may sound harsh, but it seems to me that you are planning to waste £70.

Me too! I wouldn't bother with a straight-edge clamp either (spend it on a better router), because you can use one length of worktop clamped to the other as a straight-edge guide to remove bevel or to trim up a joining edge. A straight-edge clamp won't work (without clamps, anyway) along the long side, so you really can manage without.

Measure the distance between the outer edge of the right-hand side of the router's baseplate to the right-hand side of the cutter to find the offset. Clamp the worktop offset+1mm from the edge to be routed, parallel to the female side and rout the bevel off (if there is a bevel to deal with).

If you are removing bevel from what would be the female edge, you'll need a sharp chisel to define the corner, as a router bit will leave an arc, not a shoulder.

As suggested above, scribe the male edge, clamp the other top across the male part, offset+1mm from the edge and trim it up.

However fancy you make the bolt pockets is up to you, combined with any obstructions (to bolt-tightening) you'll encounter with the base cabinet carcasses.

Ray.

 

[FrenchIan]

Thanks for all the advice, gentlemen, I'm taking it all in.

Regarding the router, I had only considered it for this job - I've never found an undeniable need for one before, and I may never use it again. On the other hand, I may find it fills a gap in my life I didn't know I had.....

Something like a Makita or a Festool would be wasted on me, but a Triton at only £30 more sounds reasonable. I guess I'll see what's available when I'm back in the UK next week - my experience is that (hand) powertools are much cheaper, with a better selection, in the UK compared to France.

They do sell aluminium straightedges here though, very reasonably - a 4M one for £15 or so - that would do me, I think.

Food for thought here.

Thanks

 

[Shultzy]

Ian, I have the Screwfix Erbauer which I have used in the construction of my workshop (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=17187). Although I've only used it on pine and MDF its worked very well. I know it probably won't survive in a professional environment but like me you aren't going to be using it every day.

 

[oddsocks]

OK, if it's a relatively simple butt joint that's needed, it's looking do-able. I think I may go for it.

As for which router to get, Scr*wf*x are selling an Erbauer - 1/2 inch and 2100W - for £70. Would that plus some decent cutters (Trend, say) do me?

As you've all pointed out, I may destroy a section of work top before I get it right, but how else will I learn?

Thanks for the encouragement

I bought that router and a freud bit to do my first worktop 3 years ago for my mother in law. I already had 1/4" routers but had never needed a 1/2" so went 'cheap'. It did the job (together with a cheap jig from ebay) but I would advise buying a better one - the soft start on mine was erratic and if put under too much load (which wasn't much) stopped and then started again - not what u want in a first router!.
The recommendation on a new cutter per joint is aimed at manmade worktops due to the abrasive nature of the material - if you are working wood it may not be necessary.
I have just bought the set of 5 x 1/2" perform worktop cutters from axminster - on special offer at 50% off at £19.95 for 5 (order code 709963) - my freud bit is chipped beyond repair (I used it for 3 joints). Axminster also have the dewalt 1/2" DW625EK router with free sander for £244.95 (code 610735)