Bad Purchasing Experience -Bosch GTS10 Table Saw

[Prizen]

This topic needs a little legal clarification before too many people get completely the wrong end of the stick.

As the majority of the 'discussion' here has revolved around the UK Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations of 2000, perhaps a simplification of the rules may help.

Firstly, the term "distance selling" means that the sale has happened over a distance - not the the seller is a distance from the customer.

When you go into a retailer's premises and contract to buy something from them on their premises, the sale is not done at a "distance", therefore the contract of sale (the purchase) is not made subject to the protections of the "Distance Selling" regulations. I must add also that in the event of a dispute (quality of goods, 'fit for purpose' etc.) the goods must be returned to the place where the contract of sale was affected, unless the seller agrees otherwise. A retailer is not expected in law to travel to the customer to resolve a problem, which may or may not be the responsibility of the seller. The onus is on the customer, as the now owner of the goods, to demonstrate the problem and give the retailer the chance to resolve the issue. Attacking the retailer in a public place (an internet forum, for example) would be seen by any court to be an unfair and libelous attack on that retailer, opening the attacker up to the possibility of substantial legal costs should the retailer chose to litigate.

So, if you buy something in a shop, your sale is not covered by the "Distance Selling" regulations, no matter where you live, or how far away that may be.

However, if you place you an order by telephone, letter or by way of the internet, the transaction is protected by the "Distance Selling" regulations.

You can read the full regulations here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000 ... tents/made

Read an Office of Fair Trading publication for the consumer here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/distan ... uying1.pdf

and there is an interesting pdf of the "Guide for Businesses on Distance Selling" here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/busine ... oft698.pdf

Hope this helps to dispel some of the misunderstandings and misconceptions I have seen expressed here.

"Attack"? With respect Peter, I wouldn't call it an attack. Can somebody not voice their opinion on customer service with any particular retailer anymore? To add - I would never write anything about my dealings with a retailer that wasn't factual.
If the retailer was really worried about preserving their reputation, then they would have came to some arrangement with me (me offering to buy more equipment form them and then uplifting saw at this point as one possibility!) Some people think that it is as easy as jumping in the car (350 miles round-trip) and returning the saw. This retailer has been well protected by this site, Do a search of this forum for "Easyjet".. It seems that they have not been afforded the same luxury..


Anyway, I'm finished posting about this as it's going nowhere. A loss for the consumer...

 

[ColeyS1]

Don't mention Rutlands or Mikedd :lol:

 

[Peter Gee]

non vale la pena...

 

[Philjohn60]

This is obviously a contentious subject and as a newbie I don't want to besmirch my own character by going against the grain, but I'm still with Prizen on this issue. I agree with Peter Gee that Distance Selling Regs are totally irrelevant in this instance, but the law is still in Prizen's favour. He has every right to a full refund, but only for the cost of the saw, which has to be returned untinkered with. He is after all 'the customer' and has every right to expect satisfaction from the retailer. Don't worry about the diesel Prizen, get your money back and buy elsewhere as I suggested. You'll still be quids in.

With regard to naming and shaming those who might not provide the best of service, I would have thought that a forum was the ideal platform for discussions to take place. If we are all so afraid of litigation these day's that we can't tell it how we see it, then these are dark times indeed.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Having been sued for libel, I know from bitter experience that it is not something you want to happen. Magazines are often accused of pandering to advertisers, and that might be the case, but their real concern when it comes to criticising customer service (which is so difficult to prove one way or the other) is that they will be accused of defamation or malicious falsehood. It is one thing to find fault in a single product, but to defame a reputation is dangerous, legally and morally. That said, forums are in a great position to find out, by hints and whispers, if poor customer service is habitual, and so they should. It is not an easy path to chart.

 

[marcros]

i think that this thread has ran its course, and information is repeating itself.

could i suggest that it is locked?

 

[powertools]

I agree with Marcros I thought that this was a woodwork forum and not consumer rights.

 

[Noel]

Consumer rights is an important and worthwhile issue to discuss and learn from especially where tools and WW machinery is concerned as evidenced in this thread. We're all consumers in one way or another in woodworking.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I couldn't agree more, Noel. No one has to open a thread, but like many others, I've learnt stuff here about consumer rights, and from time to time it's surely important we discuss the potential power a forum and its members have over a business or individuals?

Nick

 

[Eric The Viking]

There's another issue involving libel: any lawyer will say that it's not worth pursuing unless, (a) the supposed offender has lots of money, or (b) you want to shut down the supposed offender altogether.

Unlike slander (speaking untruths to someone's detriment), libel involves a medium of some sort - print, radio. TV, or nowadays the internet, AND THIS IS THE BIGGIE: the plaintiff can sue the publication as well as the individual doing the libel. That means the owners of this forum!

It's safe to be exact with facts ("such-and-such happened"), but not to accuse anyone or to write in a way that would damage reputation. Even the old defence, "it's the truth", doesn't hold as strongly as it did, after recent court cases, and EU driven interference in our existing law (he said, struggling to remember the details after getting up very early this morning). After Levison, too, it's going more and more in the direction of the rich getting protection from all criticism. But I digress...

Cutting to the chase, it's a very good idea to keep public forum comments gentle, especially in the first instance, as it protects the forum owners from lawsuits. Otherwise they can be forced to moderate things, meaning they take more responsibility (and have less legal protection because they regularly intervene), and the whole thing rapidly falls apart.

We don't have first amendment rights in this country (UK), more's the pity, but that's the way it is.

E.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Libel is obviously a big issue, but there's also common decency. It may well be the case that someone has suffered poor customer service, and that's not good, but there may be extenuating circumstances, and habitual offending needs to be tickled out gently. The tendency to name and shame without substantial evidence can be unfair, and in extreme cases has led to ruination. We shouldn't forget that there are livelihoods depending on reputations.

 

[Philjohn60]

Wise words Noel. Nick Gibbs and Erik the Viking!

Whilst 'Caveat Emptor' has quite rightly been superceded in law by the Sale of Goods Act, it's still a useful principle for buyers to stick to. The other is the old adage 'Buy in haste, repent at leisure' (this can also apply to marriage as I know to my cost!).

Sometimes, with a glass of fine Rioja in hand, it's easy to forget that a forum is not the pub and libel is big business for hard grafting, considerate, lovable, thoroughly decent, morally upstanding people like lawyers.

Retailers don't need a sales charter as it already exists in the Sale of Goods Act. I do think however that before a customer leaves the shop with a product of substantial value, a good retailer should offer to unbox it, test it and make sure it's to the customers saisfaction. That way everybody is happy.

I hope Prizen resolves his problem without too much more ado and I apologise if my original summing up of the retailer caused consternation here.

 

[RogerBoyle]

So has the saw been returned or not ????

 

[Jacob]

So has the saw been returned or not ????

Or have you given it a careful corrective thump with a hammer? That's what I'd try first.

 

[jim_hanna]

Hi Prizen

Sorry you had a bad experience when buying on a visit to Northern Ireland.
Over the years I’ve had experience of most of the local tool suppliers, sufficient to say that for the past few years I’ve bought nothing locally and got anything I wanted by mail order, mostly from Axminster and a few specialised bits direct from Trend.
Online offers better choice, the lower prices usually offset the carriage charges, no worries about returning faulty goods and I know I won’t be fobbed off with the dodgy gear which the trade customers rejected.

Regards
Jim

 

[Lenny]

Hi Prizen don't mean to state the obvious but I had the same problem
with the saw until I tightened it all around which corrected this

Regards Lenny