Ash goblet hollowing

[Kerrowman]

Hi all,

I’m a turning newbie and have been trying to create a small goblet using a piece of Ash. Rounding the cylinder has been fine but when it came to gouging out the centre of the unsupported end with the spindle gouge things came unstuck.

I think my gouge is sharp with a good bevel but I’m also aware that Ash is as hard as Oak and that perhaps when one is confronting the end grain, when trying to hollow out the end, that maybe it’s just very tough to cut the fibres for hollowing out and lots of catches occur. Big catches keep loosing my cylinder concentricity so I have to rough down further to correct. At this rate I will end up with a pencil.

I’m working through Keith Rowley's foundation course which is very thorough but have got stuck on the goblet. Perhaps I should be using a softer wood at my stage?

Any guidance would be welcomed.

 

[Inspector]

You need to use a bowl gouge on the end grain inside the goblet. I would suggest you set aside the project until you get a bowl gouge and start with shorter boxes and small bowls. Never use a spindle gouge for a job like that.

Pete

 

[scooby]

Most of the people I've seen drill the majority of it out. Not sure if you have a drill chuck and a suitable bit though. Sorry if that's not much help, I've not got enough experience to give any better advice.

Just curious, are those jaws suitable for length of timber? I'm guessing they are 50mm jaws.
I'm not criticising (I'd like to know also) as most of the chuck/faceplate work I've done have only been a few inches.

 

[Lazurus]

Hmmm your work holding needs addressing before it flies across the workshop, especially if taking large or heavy cuts with a BOWL gouge or hollowing tool. I always use a forstner bit to take out a good proportion, finish, then use a suitable support (tennis ball) on the taile stock which is used to support the rest of the project. Careful measuring of depth when forming the outside so you have an suitable and equal wall thickness. Try doing a practise goblet going just the bowl part first, or better still egg cups, it is suprisingly difficult to make a matching set.

 

[Kerrowman]

I started with support from the tail stock also but you need to remove that to do the hollowing part. I’m using a beefy screw chuck at the other end held in 4 jaws so should be ok.

As for not using a spindle gouge, Keith Rowley specifically says use it as the photo of the relevant page shows. I do have a 1/2 inch bowl gouge and did wonder whether I should use it but decided to ‘follow the book’. Is he wrong?

 

[scooby]

I've not read that book yet (its on my to read list) but I'd recommend having a search for Mike Waldt on Youtube. He's done quite a few videos on goblets.

 

[Kerrowman]

Well he certainly uses a spindle gouge as one option and not a bowl gouge. He gave a few options so one should work for me. I think I should practice on a softer wood to start with.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You can use spindle gouges for goblets, boxes etc. but you would normally put a hole in the centre first and pull the tool outwards from the bottom inside to the rim with a so you are in effect cutting with the grain. The experienced turners I used to turn with actually used the spindle gouge to bore the hole - it's just like a shell auger. I suspect you are trying to go across the end face which is end grain and not the best cut for a spindle gouge.

 

[Duncan A]

A spindle gouge is the correct tool, although some people do use a bowl gouge to hollow end grain.
I think you have too much vibration of the wood to achieve a controllable cut. You need to significantly shorten the wood and hold it with a good beefy tenon instead of a screw chuck, the latter being more usually used in faceplate work. The tenon should be sized and shaped correctly to suit your chuck jaws.
Duncan

 

[Kerrowman]

You can use spindle gouges for goblets, boxes etc. but you would normally put a hole in the centre first and pull the tool outwards from the bottom inside to the rim with a so you are in effect cutting with the grain. The experienced turners I used to turn with actually used the spindle gouge to bore the hole - it's just like a shell auger. I suspect you are trying to go across the end face which is end grain and not the best cut for a spindle gouge.

I’ve just watched Mike Waldron use his spindle gouge to cut across the end of a cylinder from near the outer rim to the centre as one option to start hollowing. Admittedly it was fence post wood to demonstrate but from what you say that is bad practice.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I didn't say it was bad practice necessarily, I've only seen it done (and done it) the other way. I would depend as well what the grind on the gouge is - a fingernail would probably snatch badly used that way, especially if inexperienced.

 

[Mark Hancock]

You’re getting a lot of conflicting comments so I’ll have a go and confuse you more

First thing you always do before doing any cut is

• Check what the grain direction is
• Pick the appropriate tool for the job
• Ensure the tool has an appropriate profile/grind for the job

In your case you are trying to hollow parallel grain timber. So a shallow fluted gouge is generally consider the tool for the job although on a larger piece a hollowing tool or deep fluted bowl gouge could be used; with the latter the Raffan cut might be suitable.

The profile is usually a fingernail grind with a 40 to 45 degree angle. You have the option of working from the centre out to the rim or the reverse direction from the rim to the centre. A different part of the cutting edge is used depending on the direction you choose.

 

[Kerrowman]

You’re getting a lot of conflicting comments so I’ll have a go and confuse you more

First thing you always do before doing any cut is

• Check what the grain direction is
• Pick the appropriate tool for the job
• Ensure the tool has an appropriate profile/grind for the job

In your case you are trying to hollow parallel grain timber. So a shallow fluted gouge is generally consider the tool for the job although on a larger piece a hollowing tool or deep fluted bowl gouge could be used; with the latter the Raffan cut might be suitable.

The profile is usually a fingernail grind with a 40 to 45 degree angle. You have the option of working from the centre out to the rim or the reverse direction from the rim to the centre. A different part of the cutting edge is used depending on the direction you choose.

I get what you are saying although I would have referred to my task as trying to hollow out end grain. The pic is what I ended up with after repeated catches meant thinning down more and more to remove them. It’s the start of a chess set I guess!
I can see why the text book says use a piece of softwood. I have a Sorby 1/2” fingernail bowl gouge and should soon receive a Sorby 3/8” spindle gouge. I’ll be confident that they are strong enough and initially setup right to get some good practice.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

This may be of interest - one of my demos on goblet turning.

 

[Kerrowman]

This may be of interest - one of my demos on goblet turning.

Thanks. I’ll watch with interest.

 

[Mark Hancock]

end grain.

A phase I hate because one doesn't cut the end of the grain but rather the side.

 

[Kerrowman]

A phase I hate because one doesn't cut the end of the grain but rather the side.

I suppose that all depends on the angle the cutting edge meets the wood. If starting on the circumference and moving in then it’s side grain but if head on the end face then it’s end grain-isn’t it?

 

[Inspector]

Maybe you should just use a scraper. HHS or carbide if sharpening isn't your thing.

Pete

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

It's a learning curve, and you are learning.
I have the same book and as a complete beginner found it very useful to work through (still very much a beginner)
Make sure its safe (as above re: work holding) read the page again, make sure gouge is sharp (yes I did it with the spindle gouge as per the exercise in the book, though the base, well err it kinda disappeared after catching it)
I found that sometimes the cut just happened, and other times it wouldn't, tool rest too high or low, gouge wrong angle, moving wrongly etc. I also found stopping the lathe, holding the tool where I wanted to cut, looking at bevel and where the tool is and then practicing the movements, with the lathe off helpful.

Be safe, and keep going.

 

[Kerrowman]

Maybe you should just use a scraper. HHS or carbide if sharpening isn't your thing.

Pete

Yes I did resort to a scraper in the result shown in the earlier photo but I’m keen to make it work with a gouge too.