anyone run their own design and manuf furniture co.

[RobinBHM]

There is only a very small market for high end freestanding furniture made in small batches. I studied a furniture degree at High Wycombe back in the late 80's. Then a number of quality furniture businesses existed; G-plan, Ercol, Glenisters, Parker Knoll. Now there is almost no furniture industry in High Wycombe or indeed in this country.

We are in the ikea generation, where furniture is considered a disposable product. CNC automation and third world labour means prices can be very low.

There is definitely a market for fitted furniture and joinery. It is very possible for a local joinery shop to compete against a Sharps fitted wardrobe or study.

For high end bespoke cabinetmaking there is a commercial market for shopfitting, pub fitting, restaurants, reception desks, board room tables.

 

[sawdust1]

wolfey, can we have some pics to see what a 11k table looks like ! The most expensive one i've ever made in Oak was around £700. 10K profit is what i would see for 6 months work, which is probably the norm for a one man band.
Things to make, well look around at what people need in their homes. Storage is always in short supply so look at cupboards and
in the kitchen larder cupboards. Yes built in is always a winner. The 3 orders i have booked in at the mo are for fitted, 2 wardrobes and 1 alcove unit which has been delivered.
Paul, send pm for meet up.

 

[doctor Bob]

just finished a console table for a customer at a cost of just over 11k, it probably cost around a thousand pound to produce including labour and took around 16hrs total start to finish

I'd be ashamed and embarrassed to make a post like this. To do it on an open forum is just daft.

 

[navypaul]

im not looking at 11k tables as i think that would be unrealistic im looking at a price-point of £800-1k occasional tables and £1.5.2.2k tv stand/table stuff in that area, 5K sofa etc. so not attracting the OFW market but not limiting the market to the uber rich just those which like better quality uk made original if design. maybe a bit quirky but not too high fashion and i only have to match my current wage and ill be happy at say an average profit of £500 to £1k for non sofa furniture and £2K per sofa i only need to sell an average 3 in 2 weeks plus i have my current occupation providing another war dont break out

 

[wolfey]

Hello Dr Bob, now I understand the Mr Grumpy tag...

I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.

If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.

The point of a makers market is to execute the customers request exactly. Would we have won the job if we had charged 3.5k ? probably not! That is a makers market.

I apologies once again to anyone I have offended and have always enjoyed looking over this forum, I simply decided to join it as I am taking a year out from my main company to set up a new machine shop in the area to cater to the public market of fitted furniture 'kitchens ect' and was going to document it on here for everyone to see it set up and either succeed or fail as thought it may be of interest to some of you to watch it come together and follow the ups and downs of a joinery shop from the start.

Maybe I should have just put it on a YouTube channel instead.!!!

Best

Wolfey

 

[doctor Bob]

I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.

If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.

The point of a makers market is to execute the customers request exactly. Would we have won the job if we had charged 3.5k ? probably not! That is a makers market.

I apologies once again to anyone I have offended and have always enjoyed looking over this forum, I simply decided to join it as I am taking a year out from my main company to set up a new machine shop in the area to cater to the public market of fitted furniture 'kitchens ect' and was going to document it on here for everyone to see it set up and either succeed or fail as thought it may be of interest to some of you to watch it come together and follow the ups and downs of a joinery shop from the start.

Maybe I should have just put it on a YouTube channel instead.!!!

Best

Wolfey

You haven't offended me, I just think you are bragging about something I'd be ashamed of, still as you say you seem to think it's fair to make a profit of £8500 on the figure they gave you and then bung another £1500 on top. Each to their own. I like to sleep at night.

If I'm honest it smells of bullshite.

 

[Zeddedhed]

I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.

If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.

The point of a makers market is to execute the customers request exactly. Would we have won the job if we had charged 3.5k ? probably not! That is a makers market.

I apologies once again to anyone I have offended and have always enjoyed looking over this forum, I simply decided to join it as I am taking a year out from my main company to set up a new machine shop in the area to cater to the public market of fitted furniture 'kitchens ect' and was going to document it on here for everyone to see it set up and either succeed or fail as thought it may be of interest to some of you to watch it come together and follow the ups and downs of a joinery shop from the start.

Maybe I should have just put it on a YouTube channel instead.!!!

Best

Wolfey

You haven't offended me, I just think you are bragging about something I'd be ashamed of, still as you say you seem to think it's fair to make a profit of £8500 on the figure they gave you and then bung another £1500 on top. Each to their own. I like to sleep at night.

If I'm honest it smells of bullshite.

Question: If the customer is happy to pay your price and is happy with the end product, is it a rip off or something to be 'ashamed of' if you made a very substantial profit?

I have to say i have been in this position myself - more than once.
Some years ago whilst running a building business as a main contractor we were carrying out a refurb of a large exclusive property for a client.
The spec was very high and the project cost was over £2.5 million.
We were not originally contracted to supply and fit the kitchen - the client had found a supplier in Surrey (near Guildford I believe). Our role was simply to manage and facilitate the installation. (Management & attendance in builders contractual parlance)

When it came to the time for the Kitchen company to do their thing it became apparent that they were not going to be able to work within the schedule previously agreed. The client came to us and asked us to 'get something sorted - just make sure the wife is happy'.

We visited the original supplier in Guildford and whilst speaking with one of their workshop staff discovered that the kitchens they were selling were in fact reworked Howdens carcasses with 'bespoke' doors, often from online suppliers.

We were then told the budget - £280k.

When I spoke to the client and suggested the job could be done for much less to the same or higher standard he told me "I promised the wife a £280k kitchen so thats what she's getting."
So he got a kitchen for a shade under £280k. Miele top of the range appliances, solid pippy Oak doors, expensive worktops etc etc.

He and wife were over the moon - we made a lot of money and everyone was happy. Am I ashamed? - No. Do I think it was wrong? - No. can I sleep at night? - No (but thats for very different reasons!!)

I certainly didn't post this to brag - more in response to Wolfeys post and Bobs reply. I don't think it's entirely black and white.

Discuss.

 

[sawdust1]

Thats why the owners of the above are driving around in a porche and i'm in a battered old van.
I have always said some customers will not see all the hours you have spent doing dove tails and mortice joints, all the hours of sanding, its all about the finished item, if it looks good then they are happy. And some just think they are better than you because they have a 10k table and you don't !
Just 1 customer like that would do me !
Would i sleep well at night, no because i would stay awake thinking of what i could spend the money on !

 

[Zeddedhed]

Thats why the owners of the above are driving around in a porche and i'm in a battered old van.
I have always said some customers will not see all the hours you have spent doing dove tails and mortice joints, all the hours of sanding, its all about the finished item, if it looks good then they are happy. And some just think they are better than you because they have a 10k table and you don't !
Just 1 customer like that would do me !
Would i sleep well at night, no because i would stay awake thinking of what i could spend the money on !

I'm afraid it's not the case that I'm driving around in a Porsche. Rather a battered old 1987 Landcover Defender or a knackered Transit.
Unfortunately whilst some jobs make a good profit, others don't always work out as planned. Factor in a few bad payers over the years and time not working due to weather/sickness etc, unforeseen expenses and a decent workshop flooding and there goes the profit. I din't say that this was the norm - far from it. Most of the time it's a simple formula of materials plus labour plus overhead and then add on a small profit margin and hope you get the job (and that you estimated the materials and labour correctly and there are no hiccups). Then you make a wage.

 

[AJB Temple]

I think the post from Wolfey was taken out of context. He had already done extensive other work for this customer and was asked to do an additional piece. The customer must have been happy in the first place to request this and was clearly happy in the end. It was an incremental piece of work and taken in isolation the book profit looks large to some. However, it could just as easily have been accounted for as a component of the whole, resulting in a different view of the return. If the customer is happy, I can't see the problem. It's a fact of life that some people perceive value in expensive things and would value the same thing less or even not want it if it was cheap. Zedd's point is a good example and having dealt with London property developers on occasions (friend of mine is in the game) I know it to be true.

I also think that it is a big mistake to cost everything on a materials plus so called profit basis. In this case, we have to attribute value to other things. For example, Wolfey had learnt his trade and was able to do this piece of work perfectly. All that experience and confidence adds value. He has invested in the facility that enables him to do it. And he dropped everything to do it immediately. That adds value too and should not just be costed at an hourly rate.

In my business, which is not woodwork, I recently charged a new client somewhat in excess of £50,000 for a one off piece of work arranging a particular deal. It required me personally to spend an entire weekend, at zero notice (Friday afternoon), drafting transactional and legal and risk management material that would save them a far larger sum because they stood to suffer a large Swiss loss if they did not meet a tight deadline. I normally don't charge at this rate, but in this case I put my business at their disposal to do a special job that others could not easily do, or do quickly. I have thirty years experience in some specialised areas and this learning has a cost attached to it that at times, occasionally, can add significant value. Was the client ripped off - in my opinion no. They got a damn good service and they paid for it. They were happy as we took over totally and solved their problem totally. This happens in business from time to time and businessmen should not be ashamed of it. Nor should we project it as being the norm, and wolfey didn't.

I thought his post was interesting and I hope he does indeed recount some of his experiences as maybe some of us could learn from them.

 

[Zeddedhed]

AJB, I totally agree with your point about that not all jobs should be costed 'equal'. My point was that the basis of ALL pricing is to first know your base costs (Labour, Materials and Overhead). That tells you the LOWEST you can do it and not take a loss. After that the profit should be suitable for the circumstances. Both yours and the clients.

 

[doctor Bob]

Of course it's each to their own. For me though it is black and white. There is making a profit, making a good profit, having a right touch and taking the wee wee.

I like to make a good profit, I do alright, I have a nice house being built. However I have morals and principles which from a personal point of view outweigh any profit.
I know nothing about building and hope my builder is not overcharging me. If he charged me £10000 to fit 5 velux windows and I later found out it should cost £1000 i'd be gutted and disgusted, whether he did a good job or not, even if I'm pleased with the fitting I have still been overcharged.

I have a past life which caused me huge issues, these days I find money is useful, peace of mind is priceless.

These are my values, others have their own.

 

[tomatwark]

I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.

If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.

The point of a makers market is to execute the customers request exactly. Would we have won the job if we had charged 3.5k ? probably not! That is a makers market.

I apologies once again to anyone I have offended and have always enjoyed looking over this forum, I simply decided to join it as I am taking a year out from my main company to set up a new machine shop in the area to cater to the public market of fitted furniture 'kitchens ect' and was going to document it on here for everyone to see it set up and either succeed or fail as thought it may be of interest to some of you to watch it come together and follow the ups and downs of a joinery shop from the start.

Maybe I should have just put it on a YouTube channel instead.!!!

Best

Wolfey

You haven't offended me, I just think you are bragging about something I'd be ashamed of, still as you say you seem to think it's fair to make a profit of £8500 on the figure they gave you and then bung another £1500 on top. Each to their own. I like to sleep at night.

If I'm honest it smells of bullshite.

Question: If the customer is happy to pay your price and is happy with the end product, is it a rip off or something to be 'ashamed of' if you made a very substantial profit?

I have to say i have been in this position myself - more than once.
Some years ago whilst running a building business as a main contractor we were carrying out a refurb of a large exclusive property for a client.
The spec was very high and the project cost was over £2.5 million.
We were not originally contracted to supply and fit the kitchen - the client had found a supplier in Surrey (near Guildford I believe). Our role was simply to manage and facilitate the installation. (Management & attendance in builders contractual parlance)

When it came to the time for the Kitchen company to do their thing it became apparent that they were not going to be able to work within the schedule previously agreed. The client came to us and asked us to 'get something sorted - just make sure the wife is happy'.

We visited the original supplier in Guildford and whilst speaking with one of their workshop staff discovered that the kitchens they were selling were in fact reworked Howdens carcasses with 'bespoke' doors, often from online suppliers.

We were then told the budget - £280k.

When I spoke to the client and suggested the job could be done for much less to the same or higher standard he told me "I promised the wife a £280k kitchen so thats what she's getting."
So he got a kitchen for a shade under £280k. Miele top of the range appliances, solid pippy Oak doors, expensive worktops etc etc.

He and wife were over the moon - we made a lot of money and everyone was happy. Am I ashamed? - No. Do I think it was wrong? - No. can I sleep at night? - No (but thats for very different reasons!!)

I certainly didn't post this to brag - more in response to Wolfeys post and Bobs reply. I don't think it's entirely black and white.

Discuss.

But you were being honest which is exactly what Bob is saying, your client could have easily have said thanks for stopping this and how much could you sort me out a kitchen for with this spec, but he did not and ended up with a lot better job at the end.

I guess if the rest of the overall project was being that well run by you, it meant more to the client that the whole job was finished on time and he was happy, than saving a few grand.


Something does not ring true about this, Wolfey is saying he has all these businesses and premises and is currently setting up another, any business person that I know, who is this successful would be savy enough not to go on a public forum bragging about how much money he made on a job.

That said I guess I have the outlook on life as Bob.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Still waiting to see a picture of this 11 grand table....

 

[davin]

I want to see the pine tables the young lad sells online earning himself £100000 a year or whatever figure it was.

 

[wolfey]

Hello all, and thank you to Zeddhed, Sawdust1 and AJB Temple for understanding my post.. (not shore how to do the 'Thanked Button thing') Not great with computers, better left at a bench in the machine shop type of guy!!

Firstly I would like to say I am as fare away from a bragger you will ever meet, but understand like most forums there is a certain tone here.......
I enjoyed the posts above as showed other members a different and profitable side to any business, these are known as chance happenings and don't come along often but if dealt with well can make or break a business.

Over the years I've looked in on this forum this is an area that has never been discussed positively, which I feel is a shame for members truly looking for advise to make it in the industry.
To put it blunt... If id have come here for advice when thinking of setting up my first joinery shop I would never of done it!!... Some members on here seem to just bring it down, be it due to their failings or miss fortunes within the industry I do not think it is fair to members looking for a helping hand of positivity on sacrificing everything they have to give it a go..

I was hoping to add a positivity here, when I took my first unit on at 19 I did not have next months rent, I was pushed to do it even by my boss I done my apprenticeship with, I have taken positive advice for the last 15yrs be it investing the last of my money in a new machine that would open a new market for us to enter or taking on another premises so we could handle more work. Every one of these decisions stood to hurt me financially and undo all the hard work I had put in to date. But it was the positivity of those around me including customers that had their own businesses and loved our work gave great advice on what they thought our strong points were and where we needed to work harder.

With taking a step back from my company which is more manufacture based now (not what I ever planned to create but is a rolling snowball now days and if it stopped for a week it would probably fold) I am going back to where it all started and setting up a new local joinery shop to once again supply fitted furniture, kitchens, gates doors ect to the local market.(bit of advice, steer clear of the timber window market unless you are a power house!) tuff side of the industry unless you are big. Great on a small scale for 'Church works' ect tho.

In doing this I thought you guys would like to have followed it from set up stage which starts in 3-4 weeks time.

As I say, I am a normal woodworker and not a bragger, I work Saturdays as I have always done since 16 and am at our proposed unit today loading skips, having a fire and got the strimmer out in the yard. Just popped into the unit to get out the rain and have a coffee.

Once again, thank you to those who understood where I was coming from and sorry to anyone I rattled.

I just think it would be nice to see more positivity on this forum as we are in a great market with access to anyone with determination and the correct decisions.

If I leave one thing, you are allowed to make mistakes, as long as you crack straight back on.....!
And for the tuff on here, I was always taught......" There is no shame in business!"

Best

Wolfey

 

[Beau]

Hello all, and thank you to Zeddhed, Sawdust1 and AJB Temple for understanding my post.. (not shore how to do the 'Thanked Button thing') Not great with computers, better left at a bench in the machine shop type of guy!!

Firstly I would like to say I am as fare away from a bragger you will ever meet, but understand like most forums there is a certain tone here.......
I enjoyed the posts above as showed other members a different and profitable side to any business, these are known as chance happenings and don't come along often but if dealt with well can make or break a business.

Over the years I've looked in on this forum this is an area that has never been discussed positively, which I feel is a shame for members truly looking for advise to make it in the industry.
To put it blunt... If id have come here for advice when thinking of setting up my first joinery shop I would never of done it!!... Some members on here seem to just bring it down, be it due to their failings or miss fortunes within the industry I do not think it is fair to members looking for a helping hand of positivity on sacrificing everything they have to give it a go..

I was hoping to add a positivity here, when I took my first unit on at 19 I did not have next months rent, I was pushed to do it even by my boss I done my apprenticeship with, I have taken positive advice for the last 15yrs be it investing the last of my money in a new machine that would open a new market for us to enter or taking on another premises so we could handle more work. Every one of these decisions stood to hurt me financially and undo all the hard work I had put in to date. But it was the positivity of those around me including customers that had their own businesses and loved our work gave great advice on what they thought our strong points were and where we needed to work harder.

With taking a step back from my company which is more manufacture based now (not what I ever planned to create but is a rolling snowball now days and if it stopped for a week it would probably fold) I am going back to where it all started and setting up a new local joinery shop to once again supply fitted furniture, kitchens, gates doors ect to the local market.(bit of advice, steer clear of the timber window market unless you are a power house!) tuff side of the industry unless you are big. Great on a small scale for 'Church works' ect tho.

In doing this I thought you guys would like to have followed it from set up stage which starts in 3-4 weeks time.

As I say, I am a normal woodworker and not a bragger, I work Saturdays as I have always done since 16 and am at our proposed unit today loading skips, having a fire and got the strimmer out in the yard. Just popped into the unit to get out the rain and have a coffee.

Once again, thank you to those who understood where I was coming from and sorry to anyone I rattled.

I just think it would be nice to see more positivity on this forum as we are in a great market with access to anyone with determination and the correct decisions.

If I leave one thing, you are allowed to make mistakes, as long as you crack straight back on.....!
And for the tuff on here, I was always taught......" There is no shame in business!"

Best

Wolfey

=D> =D> =D>

Good post.


It's not really surprising that you get a fair bit of negativity on forums as those that are doing well are getting on with their work not messing about on the internet. I fall into the others that are not so good at it end up messing about the internet for ideas haha

 

[doctor Bob]

I'm not questioning your positivity, how well you have done, sounds like you have done great.
I'm questioning the ethics of your post, thats all.

 

[davin]

Would still be very interested in a "blog" about your new venture. Good luck.

 

[Beau]

Jeez if I could make something in few hours, please the customer and make a killing why not. Plenty of times I have made something on less than the minimum wage due to poor quoting. Bob would you say the customer is unethical to not pay more under these circumstances?

You win some you lose some is how I see it.