Anyone near me that can sharpen my tools?

[chipmunk]

Making a jig to help grind scrapers, for instance, isn't too hard to work out for yourself really.
The complex mystique that seems to be prevalent on exotic shapes for bowls gauges wasn't around so much then either. A fixed angle worked just fine.

I agree with you about simple grinds but I suppose I thought by jigs you were referring to the exotic Elsworth/Celtic swept back gouge jigs.

It makes me wonder what, other than a flat grinder platform, would you want for scrapers and straight-across ground bowl gouges anyway?

I've never seen any advantage of grinding skews, parting tools, straight across bowl gouges or scrapers any other way than on a flat platform and I have a homemade one of those. I don't think I class this as a jig but others perhaps do?

Jon

 

[CHJ]

.......I could be wrong here but I don't think turners bothered with sharpening jigs say 40 years ago. It wasn't a problem then, it isn't now.

Neither did you have all the benefits now available as standard in most current cars but that does not mean that it's sensible to ignore them and continue to live in the past.

.......Turners also have the mechanics already in place - a sanding disc on a tailstock is all you need.

A very astute observation, I'd like to see how you manage to achieve a working system centred around a spinning tailstock.

Perhaps you would care to partake in the 2014 turning challenges Jacob and provide some inspiration and examples for us budding turners to emulate, especially if you can find time to do a few WIP sets, after all the whole ethos of UKW is to try and help folks achieve better finished pieces with their current skills and what they have to hand, it might well prove more rewarding for you than being downright argumentative just for the sake of it and making silly statements as quoted above.

 

[Jacob]

......

.......Turners also have the mechanics already in place - a sanding disc on a tailstock is all you need.

A very astute observation, I'd like to see how you manage to achieve a working system centred around a spinning tailstock.

Faceplate, ply disc, sandpaper, tool rest. Works fine. Nothing you can't sharpen (almost). There are better systems of course, but that is a good starting point. Nothing silly about it at all and you don't have to buy any extra kit..

... the whole ethos of UKW is to try and help folks achieve better finished pieces with their current skills and what they have to hand, it might well prove more rewarding for you than being downright argumentative just for the sake of it and making silly statements as quoted above.

I am trying to suggest that things are not as difficult as they are made out to be and the best way to improve current skills is to get stuck in and see what happens, rather than worrying endlessly about bits of kit and various armchair theories. Our OP should have a go and not send his tools off for sharpening. I think this is good advice.

PS forgot to add - ply disc outboard end of spindle with Autosol is brilliant for polishing edges on the flat, or inside gouges on the edge rounded off.

 

[Rhossydd]

I don't think I class this as a jig but others perhaps do?

IMHO anything that guides a tool (or work piece) to eliminate any potential errors of hand guidance ought to count as a 'jig' however simple.

 

[Jacob]

PS just realised that where I say "tailstock" I actually mean the other end of the spindle whatever it's called*. I'll edit them!

*spindle outboard end?

 

[CHJ]

.......Turners also have the mechanics already in place - a sanding disc on a tailstock is all you need.

Perhaps you should re-read your post that I quoted and highlighted in bold and you will see the Silly part of you statement.

Stopping and thinking about what you are saying in the first place rather than hastening to have an input might result in a better presentation of useful information first time around than proffering a totally different set of advise and a justification of your reasoning having been challenged.

 

[KimG]

A jig is a most useful addition to a turners workshop, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging, sure you can sharpen your gouge OK, but how many passes are you making, all those thousands of an inch extra each time soon add up to a new gouge being required a lot quicker than if you are making the very precise, accurate and parsimonious little grinds that a jig allows, plus you will always have a repeatable bevel, something that is rare in hand sharpened tools even by skilled craftsmen. Many of the top turners use jigs for precisely these reasons, no one should feel inferior or lacking in skill for using a jig, there is a lot of macho puff made of freehand sharpening, it's all cobblers, it's the end result that matters, a sharp tool, not how you get it.

 

[chipmunk]

This may seem quite a radical suggestion and I hope it isn't hijacking the thread but are swept back and fingernail profiles something that newcomers to turning really need to get started?

I know that all of the pro's advocate the swept back grind and the pull-cut is really nice for shifting material really quickly but after the valid comments by Rhossydd I'm minded to think that the straight-across grind on bowl gouges and spindle gouges needs no messing about or expensive jigs and so is probably the way to go initially. After all most gouges come this way from the factory anyway.

I acknowledge what Kim says, I'm not sure I agree entirely, but is it really a good idea to recommend that a newbie should go out and buy a lathe, tools, a grinder and a sharpening jig before they can even start turning properly?

I know that jigs can be made but I'd argue that the geometry and set-up isn't as easy as falling off a log either.

It reminds me of the late great Bert Marsh who ground all of his cutting edges at about 45 degrees and used the straight across grind on all of his bowl gouges.

Jon

 

[nev]

....
It reminds me of the late great Bert Marsh who ground all of his cutting edges at about 45 degrees and used the straight across grind on all of his bowl gouges.

Jon

Glad its not just me then.
My roughing gouge, flat scraper, round scraper and bowl gouges are all ground at the same angle and all sharpened using the tilted platform. Seems to work for me

 

[RogerP]

............, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging,............

Years ago I more-or-less got the hang of it by looking at a commercial gouge an practising with a length of wooden dowel on my disc sander the movements needed to reproduce the grind.

That was a long time ago, and although back then I could do a tolerable job, I'd probably struggle now

 

[CHJ]

............, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging,............

I find it far quicker to use a jig and avoid the inevitable mistake that will happen sooner or later in the middle of a project if I have a moments inattention freehand grinding my bowl gouges.

I see it most confusing for beginners that they see established turners demonstrating their art with exotically ground swept back gouges using a technique which they have spent several years refining and gaining experience enough to know when and when not to apply the method.
Said beginner spends no end of time and possible expense to achieve the same tool form only to end up with numerous catches and disasters because they have not appreciated how much the technique relied on the operators hand control rather than the natural rubbing bevel of the gouge that they have had drummed into them.

The same goes for wood used in demonstrations, where said demonstrator uses some nice even grained lime or similar, even green wood to throw shavings over their shoulder. The beginner on attempting similar gets frustrated because his shop bought blank of chestnut or oak leads him to believe he will never master the technique.

 

[KimG]

While I can appreciate that many tools only require a basic adjustable platform for a straightforward 45 degree (or whatever) grind, even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern in order to function, so even discounting the more "exotic" grinds used on bowl gouges, the need for accurate and economic sharpening still exists even for him. Sure a good jig is an additional expense, but like a good chuck or any of the other bits of kit aside from a lathe, you only have to buy it once and it will serve well for years.

My main point though was not to say you should have a jig, but that there is no superiority of the hand sharpened tool over the one sharpened in a jig, nor of the people doing the sharpening, but there is a certain elite-ism that is often expressed in favour of the freehand sharpener to the detriment of those who use jigs, and frankly it's very silly, that is what I was trying to counter, in order that no one should feel that they are somehow lacking because they rely on a jig to accomplish the task.

 

[chipmunk]

...even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern in order to function...

...Well I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

I don't want anyone to run away with the idea that I'm a freehand-sharpening zealot on a day out from the Hand Tools forum! :wink: :wink:

I'm simply trying to point out that it really isn't necessary for a newbie to mortgage themselves to the hilt in order to take up woodturning as a hobby and to create good well finished items of turnery. In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.

For what it's worth here's Cindy Drozda, and whether she is being elitist or not I'll leave it to you to decide, sharpening one of her signature spindle gouges and other gouges on a platform rest rather than using a gouge jig....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc

Jon

 

[Jacob]

...even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern in order to function...

...Well I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

I don't want anyone to run away with the idea that I'm a freehand-sharpening zealot on a day out from the Hand Tools forum! :wink: :wink:

I'm simply trying to point out that it really isn't necessary for a newbie to mortgage themselves to the hilt in order to take up woodturning as a hobby and to create good well finished items of turnery. In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.

For what it's worth here's Cindy Drozda, and whether she is being elitist or not I'll leave it to you to decide, sharpening one of her signature spindle gouges and other gouges on a platform rest rather than using a gouge jig....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc

Jon

Good simple stuff and a clear explanation. Not difficult, not elitist, not macho, not bullsh|t.
She name drops the platform brand a bit too much, as any old bit of ply would do. Technically this is surely no more difficult than the actual turning, and it involves repeating the same actions, which means you get it spot on after a bit of practice.
Who needs a jig? Still less a jig for each tool - could involve more expenditure on jigs than the tools themselves.

 

[Spindle]

In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.

Hi

I think this statement is misleading.

One of the most important things a beginner needs to achieve is to be able to sharpen tools to a repeatable profile whilst he learns the basics of tool presentation and use. In order to do this some form of jig will almost certainly be required, (I don't suppose many of us opted to sharpen freehand from the outset). As I said earlier, the most useful jig is an adjustable grinding rest, supplemented by a fingernail jig if the user wishes to use this profile on gouges. Both of these jigs are easily made, do not have to cost very much and I would certainly put them on a par with the lathe, grinder and tools as turning essentials for any beginner.

Regards Mick

 

[chipmunk]

In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.

I think this statement is misleading.

...and I would certainly put them on a par with the lathe, grinder and tools as turning essentials for any beginner.

Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that and move on then.
Jon

 

[wizard]

Why can’t someone near him just sharpen his tools

 

[Jacob]

......, (I don't suppose many of us opted to sharpen freehand from the outset). .....

Not nowadays obviously.
But when I first had a go at school (about 1956 perhaps :shock: ) no mention was ever made of jigs and we sharpened everything freehand (big dash for the grind-wheel if the teacher was out of the room!)
That's what everybody opted to do. Jigs weren't on the agenda. Nor were they later on when I did a bit of training (not turning). I only realised the world had gone jig crazy when I started looking at woodwork forums on the net.
It's very recent.

 

[Rhossydd]

It's very recent.

That's the rouble with progress. Just when you get used to that horse and cart someone invents a horseless carriage and everyone starts to want one.
What's the world coming to ?

 

[Jacob]

It's very recent.

That's the rouble with progress. Just when you get used to that horse and cart someone invents a horseless carriage and everyone starts to want one.
What's the world coming to ?

Yes I see what you mean. Like sliced bread. Progress! Onwards and upwards. But why are people turning anyway? It's much simpler to buy the stuff or get somebody else to do it.