Any H&S legal type guru's out there? Need some advice.

[head clansman]

hi digit


arghh not good mate was it your own machine .hc

 

[Digit]

No, I set up a plastic moulding dept for a company in Brum and was doing the machine setting whilst commissioning the machines, which were all S/H.
The particular machine was very small, fortunately, and had never been upgraded with interlocked switches or drop bars.
I heard the platten move and ****** my hand back but it closed on the index and next finger of my right hand.
It chopped the end off the index finger and tore the flesh clean off the end of the second finger and left me trapped.
I had to give instructions to the tool maker as to how to open the machine, when he did so I took my hand out, held it up and commented, 'I reckon I've lost those!',... and he passed out! :lol:

Roy.

 

[OPJ]

I was browsing through the HSE site on woodworking machinery the other week (something we've had to for college) and a came across some information on the use of dado blades ("trenching heads") in industry...

"Many companies use trenching heads on radial arm cross cut saws. The increased weight and momentum of such tooling leads to long run down times and as such you should fit brakes. Ensure that the brake is able to cope with the heaviest blade in regular use and that it has brought the saw to a complete stop before it cuts out."

Hmmm... I used to work for a firm who didn't take any notice of this or any of the other regs. with regards to braking... Even now, over a year since I left, I feel like tipping off the HSE - the current officer clearly wasn't doing his job!

It's already been established that these regs. don't apply to Dom's situation. I think I know who the "accuser" is and, for what it's worth, I think they're only trying to cover their own backs (and I mean that in a good way, no offence or criticism intended).

 

[FogggyTown]

I seem to recall being advised by someone whom I thought at the time should know, that there's nothing illegal about a stacked dado head cutter AS LONG AS the arbor on the TS is made to accept one in the first place and not modified. This pretty much limits you to older saws. Then there is the weight of the cutter which can add substantially to the spin-down time - especially on un-braked saws.

 

[p111dom]

just as long as there some form of guard on it is all that really matters protect those digits

Sorry but have to beg to differ on that one. On my old Kity 419, I had tilted the blade to 45 degrees not noticing that the crown guard extraction hose had caught on the fence bending the 2mm thick riving knife and pulling the guard into the blade. On start up, because the guard was made from tacky plastic it simply shattered to bits sending sharp chips my way. It was a scary experience at the time. Since then I've realised that most of the guards fitted on machines in the UK are pretty pointless with a few exceptions. My Jet table saw will cut though 4 inches of solid hard wood without batting an eyelid. What do you think it would do to 2mm of plastic guarding? Diddly squat thats what. The guards may bring the machine up to a H&S standard but IMO they are not fit for purpose and won't protect your fingers. Oddly, despite the US having a poor reputation on guarding, the saws I have seen over there have metal guards. More than capable of taking a glancing blow from a blade and probably would save a digit if you accidentally fell towards it. I fear that over here, far too much emphasis is put on the illusion of safety rather than the practice of it. In reality, most of these thin plastic guards offer little real world protection and in most cases hide the danger. How many people have cut a finger because they reached for an off cut under the assumption that the blade had stopped? Even with the guard that didn't save them and could have contributed to the lack of situational awareness as to the danger of a spinning blade.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating removing the guards from machines but just because a machine has one, its not necessaraly safer.

 

[OPJ]

How many people have cut a finger because they reached for an off cut under the assumption that the blade had stopped?

Ah, but that's where the importance of braking comes in! :wink:

You have got a point with the rest of your post, Dom, although I do think that many of our guards now are an improvement over the older ones. Not only for dust extraction but, look at something of the old 16" Wadkin saws with the adjustable front nose-guards - I used to work with one of those and found it terrifying at the best of times as so much of the blade (not the teeth) was exposed on both sides! :?

You only have to look at Steve Maskery's Xcalibur saw for a good example of bad modern guard design. Credit to Steve though for producing several alternative improvements. :wink:

 

[p111dom]

How many people have cut a finger because they reached for an off cut under the assumption that the blade had stopped?

You only have to look at Steve Maskery's Xcalibur saw for a good example of bad modern guard design. Credit to Steve though for producing several alternative improvements. :wink:

I agree. Steve is a bastion of common sense in his approach to safety but having never been tested to industry standards, I would have thought none of his guards would be seen as legitimate in the eyes of the Health and Safety Executive. Does this mean he's operating illegally? Of course not and I would rather operate a machine with guarding designed by him rather than the flimsy stuff you get with modern machinery.

At schools when you're taught how to cross the road you're told to look, listen and evaluate the danger. With woodworking its put on ear defenders to block out the sound, cover the blade so you can't see it moving, all the nice bright orange things in place so on you go.

Any way we seem to have digressed from the question in a way I was originally trying to avoid. My fault, it happens all the time. :roll:

 

[Finial]

There has been a lot of mixed advice on this thread. Here is my contribution. Firstly, H&S law definitely does only apply to 'work' activities. Most of it also applies to the self employed, with or without employees. If you work at home on a business footing it applies to you. Whether the business is profitable is neither here nor there.

There are safety requirements for the sale of consumer goods, that I know nothing about. But legally, private individuals are free to remove safety features if they are daft enough.

In general there are few absolute prohibitions in the workplace H&S regulations. All workplace machinery, including dado saws, has to be used in a way that is as safe as is reasonably practicable, which means they can be used if they are the most appropriate equipment from the safety standpoint, and if all due precautions are taken, including guarding. The expectation is that the safest option that is reasonably practicable is always used. If you use inappropriate equipment or take the guards off you may well be acting illegally. In practice there are difficulties with some of the debated machinery as they are not the most appropriate and guarding etc is problematic. There are risks for example with dado rundown time as mentioned, and braking can cause over-run and allow the cutters to loosen. If the regulations do apply to you, and you do not comply, then you are breaking the law. You might be 'advised' to work differently but there is no getting away from the fact that not complying with the regulations is illegal!

Even in a commercial workplace, enforcement may be lax or non-existent, although it is commonplace for businesses not to comply. The chances of enforcement or even inspection at a micro business in a home workshop is practically non-existent.

But the advice for private individuals to follow H&S law as guidance is sound. The regulations are introduced to reduce real risks to people who may have little control and are not in my view nannying or unreasonable, but I cannot see any likelihood of them being extended to the non-professional user.

 

[StevieB]

If it were illegal to make the cut, it would be illegal to sell the saw (or saw blade) capable of making the cut. My understanding of the situation from the 'Great British Woodshop' programme was that it is not illegal to use a dado PROVIDED the saw you use it on has been manufactured to take a dado head cutter. He imported his saw for that very reason and got loads of flak over it from viewers but checked everything with the HSE before during and after filming. There was quite a debate on here about it too as I recall.

Steve.

 

[Finial]

It's not enough for the saw to be manufactured to take the dado blade, that is just having the spindle to hold it. In a commercial situation it would also need proper guards and braking times etc.

But if those requirements are satisfied, they could be used. The key questions are whether the equipment is designed, constructed and used in a way that is as safe as reasonably practicable.

Equipment sold for use at work has to carry a CE mark. A saw can be sold legally and be illegal to use without the guard it came with. But this only applies to 'work'.

 

[Rich]

Surely the H&S at work act was created precisely for that environment, AT WORK, in ones own home workshop the the risk is entirely upon the user, no paid employees are involved and so no risk to other than the user, who theoretically is not running a business rather than DIY'ing, which can result in a self inflicted accident anyway, as I am sure, we are all TOO aware, the H&S act is a good and sensible thing to adhere to, at home as well as at work, but I think you will still find that you are allowed to carry on as you wish in your own home workshop, ....for the time being :wink: .

Rich.

 

[kityuser]

the way I see it for a hobby setup at home is "live and let live".

If you own a table saw (as I do) and you remove the crown guard/riving knife for some cuts (at I do.... cross cut sledge, tennoning jig etc etc), then surely its up to you. Bearing in mind you don't employ anybody and therefore your safety decisions have no ramifications on anybody else.
If you loose fingers, you only have yourself to blame!
In the situation where I remove guarding I take full responsibility for providing the necessary guarding in my jig I'm using..............

in a commercial environment where cost of machines and their up-keep may directly impact peoples safety (who have no control over these factors), then its a different kettle of fish.

surely is this not common sense?

steve

 

[woodbloke]

How many people have cut a finger because they reached for an off cut under the assumption that the blade had stopped?

There's a basic rule here that I always adhere to and that's to never retrieve anything from the saw until the blade has stopped spinning. Same with a router, you never ever remove it from a cut until the bit has stopped (not so much a H&S issue, rather one of spoiling the job, but the same principal) - Rob

 

[p111dom]

You're right Woodbloke, I work that way too. The safest thing is not to put your hands near the blad full stop. My sliding carriage has a clamp so theres no need to, and I've made jigs in the past with handles to keep hand futher away from router bits. As far as guarding goes, the bandsaw is probably the worst offender and yet they are considered a much safer machine because of the no/low kick back nature of the machine.

 

[Finial]

Rich and Kityuser are right, health and safety at work law only applies to the work situation, but that includes self-employed people carrying on businesses in home workshops. If you are not selling your work it does not apply to you.

 

[wizer]

also really curios as to who thought it was illegal to use a dado blade. Might see a UKW member on 'UK's Most Dangerous Criminals' soon.... "if you see this person, do not approach them, they may have a dado in their garage"

 

[ivan]

If you are tempted to dubious practices, be aware you may well be invalidating any insurance you have by an act of "contributory negligence". If your hobby accident means you loose your day job and insurance cover, this could be a serious problem for the whole family.

At work, if practice is lax and HSE inspection infrequent, just wait till there's an accident. With insurance cover invalidated, an employee's injury claim and the resulting court fine has often resulted in the owner loosing most of his personal assets.

 

[OPJ]

At work, if practice is lax and HSE inspection infrequent, just wait till there's an accident. With insurance cover invalidated, an employee's injury claim and the resulting court fine has often resulted in the owner loosing most of his personal assets.

I worked with a guy who cut himself using a spindle moulder two-years ago. He was shaping some 3" thick timber against the ring fence with no additional guard. Template was a piece of thin ply, 120mm wide with two dowels to act as handles - he was fortunate to get away with nothing more serious than a cut and blood poisoning (thanks to limited cutter projection and bad breath, sucking his finger).

H&S bloke was rushed in, did all his checks, made notes on his clipboard and well, that was it; nothing changed. I don't know what the safer solution to performing this operation is but, there must be one. Somewhere. :?

 

[lurker]

Rich and Kityuser are right, health and safety at work law only applies to the work situation, but that includes self-employed people carrying on businesses in home workshops. If you are not selling your work it does not apply to you.

Not quite true.

the Act is interested only with those at work and the people they might endanger.

Anyone running a business can do as thay damn well please EXCEPT when they employ another or allow another to enter their workplace.

............And another thing CE marks are not worth the labels they are printed on.

 

[kityuser]

also really curios as to who thought it was illegal to use a dado blade. Might see a UKW member on 'UK's Most Dangerous Criminals' soon.... "if you see this person, do not approach them, they may have a dado in their garage"

I always take my crown guard and riving knife off in the dead of night. I`m thinking of putting a weld-mesh cage over the work shop door for the inevitable police raid.....

crash, bang....... ARMED POLICE...... ARMED POLICE!!!!!!

I hear that "dado head possession" is punishable by confiscation of all precious hand tools :wink:

Steve