Another one where you need to be sitting down ...

[Andy Kev.]

Have a look at this:

https://www.jimbodetools.com/collection ... amy-81021u

It seems to me that the fact that this is a tool and an extremely beautifully made one to boot, is almost irrelevant. Surely what we are seeing here is an example of the tool as art and it is the price demanded which puts it into this category in my opinion. I think that the acid test is that if you were prepared to pay that kind of money, could you seriously think of it as a user, other than of course a one-off go to prove that it works as well as it looks?

I can't see anything wrong with this because it is hardly pricing the ordinary hobbyist out of the second hand market. It's just that I find it mind boggling.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

Just had a look, not knowing what to expect - firstly - wow. Secondly, it's outside any of the usual criteria, almost as if it is the product of a parallel dimension that operates under different rules, so yes, it must be art. Amazing.

Tara a bit,

SOTA

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I don't think that it is unusual, or that one should surprised by this offering. There are a great many here and elsewhere who do something similar - for example, many tools that either get built and never intended to be used, or chisels and planes and saws that are purchased and end up on a shelf for 99% of their life. What's the difference between owning a working tool - even a cheap one - and not using it, versus buying something expensive as art for display?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ED65]

I love that it's made of rosewood and faux ivory :lol: It is a lovely piece of work of course, and I suspect made specifically to be expensive. Still, think the price is ridiculous but the market will bear what the market will bear.

It must be said though, Jim Bode Tools is rather infamous for top TOP prices (and for over-stating the condition of things, although their photos are great so you should be under no illusions about what you're actually getting)

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

I don't think that it is unusual, or that one should surprised by this offering. There are a great many here and elsewhere who do something similar - for example, many tools that either get built and never intended to be used, or chisels and planes and saws that are purchased and end up on a shelf for 99% of their life. What's the difference between owning a working tool - even a cheap one - and not using it, versus buying something expensive as art for display?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I must disagree - in what way is this not unusual? I can't claim to be an expert, but I have an interest in old tools and I have never seen anything like it, which, if it was usually made, would not be the case. Also there is a big difference between buying with the intention of using and buying purely for display, especially when it comes to considering tools as art, which is the OP's proposal.

Personally I would consider a collection as approaching art in that it is held for interest not use, but that it is not in itself Art as there is no real artistic concept or self-expression.

Tara a bit,

SOTA

 

[Andy Kev.]

I don't think that it is unusual, or that one should surprised by this offering. There are a great many here and elsewhere who do something similar - for example, many tools that either get built and never intended to be used, or chisels and planes and saws that are purchased and end up on a shelf for 99% of their life. What's the difference between owning a working tool - even a cheap one - and not using it, versus buying something expensive as art for display?

Regards from Perth

Derek

As you imply, ownership is ownership, irrespective of what you want to do with the owned. What is perhaps interesting is the idea of the tool as art. By definition tools were originally made for use although it was often the case that a fair bit of artistry was put into their making, presumably on no more than aesthetic grounds.

The other extreme which might be a relatively new thing is to make a tool with the aesthetic considerations taking centre place to the point where the price tag will mean that one can hardly think of it as anything other than a work of art. How many people would be happy with more than 10k worth of kit lying on the bench and risking getting a knock?

There are some tools which seem to straddle the use/art boundary: consider Karl Holtey's planes. He appears to have been pursuing the creation of the perfect plane but while he was at it he put an awful lot of beauty into them. If I owned one I couldn't imagine not using it but I wonder if after the working day it should go into a display case in the living room as opposed to into the tool box.

I can think of no legitimate objection to tools as art although I suppose I would grumble if it started having a pricing effect on working tools or the second hand market for them. And of course working tools can have aesthetic appeal. For instance I love folding boxwood and brass rulers and have to admit to having four of them, two of which get used a lot so I suppose the other two make me guilty of being an art collector.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Andy, most of the tools from Bridge City might be considered art rather than working tools, ditto Holtey and a number of the high end plane makers. There are some that consider LN to be too expensive to use. It is common that I receive a message, when I post something I have made, that "I'd be agraid to use that" (all my tools are made to be used).

Would anyone use that particular plough you linked to? Well, no, but only because it looks like a presentation tool .. which is what you were referring to. I have one like that, but the only reason I have not used it seriously is because I have others that are more user friendly ...

1882 Miller Patent Plough Plane by Paul Hamler. This came as a kit, which I finished.

I do have another plough which I made which does get some use, but I tend to prefer the Veritas because it is easier. This is a bridal plough which would sell for USD $2500+ if they were still available (they were being made commercially by a Canadian team up until about 5 years ago). This one I made.

How many Holtey owners use their planes do you reckon? Should we consider them presentation tools as well?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I can't claim to be an expert, but I have an interest in old tools and I have never seen anything like it, which, if it was usually made, would not be the case. Also there is a big difference between buying with the intention of using and buying purely for display, especially when it comes to considering tools as art, which is the OP's proposal.

SOTA, I am familiar with this particular plane. Jim Leamy is a well know reproduction plane maker. There are less "tricked up" versions he makes for use. Someone, however, would consider those to be art for the side board simply because of their price.

Bridge City refer to these types of tools as Commemorative Tools ...

Art is always in the eye of the beholder. I do not think that our views are differing on any of this. I am simply saying that the range is wider.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

As said above it's Jim bode. Anything remotely out of the ordinary will be priced to the moon.

I believe he was in auto finance before he got into selling tools, so he well understands getting a little extra out of the customer.

 

[ED65]

I think it's fallen under the radar slightly so I want to emphasise my mention of the use of faux ivory. Go look up that material anyone who is not familiar and doesn't want me to spoil the surprise.

If you CBA to look that up and want to know highlight the rest of this sentence to reveal the hidden text: faux ivory is plastic.

 

[Tasky]

Regarding the 'real material' in faux ivory.... Well, a form of it, but then so are the Glock pistols. Doesn't mean it's cheap!!
It can also be bone or even vegetable matter - I have a lovely sword with a faux ivory grip. Most people can't even tell.
I have to say, I find most bone, ivory, horn and similar goods to be quite disappointing, precisely because they're so similar to plastic.

 

[D_W]

They must be something like walrus tusk if they're uniform. I thought elephant Ivory has a grain.

Which, by the way (elephant ivory) was fairly easy to get up until recently here. I recall saying something to George Wilson about perhaps getting a tusk to stow for the future (he thought they were unavailable when I said that), and remember seeing a fair number of 4-6 foot tusks here in the states for relatively reasonable. They weren't perfect (varying color), but I was surprised how inexpensive they were.

 

[D_W]

Oh, jeez...things have changed. High quality ivory is apparently more than $1000 a pound now.

Entire tusks a little on the dark side were about $3000 10 years ago (when they were legal). Presumably they were dropped tusks that were collected after spending some time in the elements.

 

[whiskywill]

I love that it's made of rosewood and faux ivory

Would have thought that, at that price, they should have spelled fox correctly. But I learn something yet again. Ivory comes from foxes.

 

[custard]

You can use this, which is randomly grained and has the subtle variegated colour of the genuine article, https://www.elforyn.de/en/elforyn/ivory ... oryn-blocs

It follows in a long tradition of artificial ivory, including cellulose versions and endless Victorian copies.

Some of them are so good that one of the checks for genuine ivory is applying a hot needle to see if it melts.

Or you can legally source mammoth ivory, which is being dug up in quantity from the Siberian tundra, although I understand it's often quite dark.

The real stuff...well that just looks better on the elephant that it could ever look on a man made object.

 

[t8hants]

Well I suppose its a faithful copy of the original, (which I have never seen), even down to the slightly mis-stamped labels, presumably loving reproduced, but it leaves me cold, as a copy it has no soul, its just a thing with a price tag. Now show me one that is 175 years old, has the patina of use and wear, with the marks of the master craftsmen who used it - then that I would want to see and touch and perhaps briefly own as it passes through time.

 

[ED65]

Well I suppose its a faithful copy of the original, (which I have never seen), even down to the slightly mis-stamped labels, presumably loving reproduced, but it leaves me cold, as a copy it has no soul, its just a thing with a price tag. Now show me one that is 175 years old, has the patina of use and wear, with the marks of the master craftsmen who used it - then that I would want to see and touch and perhaps briefly own as it passes through time.

Not a poke, but had you thought how you'd respond to the real one if you could jump into a time machine and see it the day it was finished?

If patina, a few knocks and scrapes, subtle rounding of arrises and the like are what make an old tool for you the original might disappoint too.

 

[t8hants]

An interesting point, was the original designed for use or as the ultimate of a craftsman's skill. The copy is undoubtedly very skillfully made, but is only going where someone else went before, put the two side by side I think I would prefer to examine the original, but wouldn't want to own either.

Its part of my character, I hate the concept of 'unopened box - toy collecting', so much lost potential for true joy, rather than apparent cheque book satisfaction.

 

[ED65]

Its part of my character, I hate the concept of 'unopened box - toy collecting', so much lost potential for true joy, rather than apparent cheque book satisfaction.

When it comes to tools I completely agree (not WRT toys though ). Too many NOS tools that many of us would give our eye teeth to try out, to see what original working condition truly was like, are just soaked up by the collectors.

 

[D_W]

Something comes to mind now that I can see full sized pictures of that plane. Part of it is faux ivory (gears, etc), and part is not (the caps and the wedge).

The gears have yellowed. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the gears and machined parts are faux ivory to make sure that they were machinable, as well as longer lasting.