Another car boot hone.

[swagman]

Its often quite difficult to identify what type of used natural honing stones on the bay, especially in the U.K where oil has been the predominant lubricant used. The oil tends to widely discolour the natural features that set 1 apart type from the other. Apart from having to work with what ever the seller is able to provide you within photo's, and written description, its not until you can actually get hold of the stone, clean it right down, to remove all traces of oil contaminant and other staining effects, that a more clearer interpretation can be ascertained. Its can be a sizable gamble in $$ when you add in the high cost of export postage, but that in a way can either add to the excitement, or disappointment, of what you may end up purchasing.

Andy and BB; I previously posted part 3: of the Honing and Grinding site.

The following attachment is part 2:
https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/ ... part_2.pdf

Stewie;

 

[D_W]

Yes, by tracking in this case. The spot where the package ended up is our local priority mail stop for Pittsburgh. Somehow, instead of heading next to my post office (literally down the road 10 miles or so), it ended up in a basket and trucked to desmoines, which is probably about 700 miles away.

annddd...back to the local distribution center today. At least they saw it quickly in des moines and sent it back. We'll see if it goes to des moines again before it settles in my mailbox.

I was looking forward to seeing what it's like! It's one of the few hones I avoided wasting money on for a long time. Since there is a white type (this one) and a black type that is more fractured and just a bit finer, I guess that still leaves something to curiosity. The black ones are hard to find, and the older types seem to be more of that type than the white.

 

[D_W]

Finally got the cretan today. I could see how it might release particles with carving tools (where hasluck says it's unsuitable), but it's very nice for chisels and plane irons.

Compared to any synthetic stones, it's hard (except for true ceramics like coors and shapton), but it's a bit more friable than arkansas stones.

Leaves a hazy finish on western chisels and almost polished on japanese. The soft iron backer on a japanese chisel shreds it off. It's a bit slower than my washita stones, and the resultant edge is relatively similar - neat stone.

This is for the white type, which is supposedly just barely softer than the black type (it's more gray, but once it's oiled, it's dark like slate). Not as many inclusions as the hard type and somewhere between the washita and a black arkansas in fineness.

 

[D_W]

One last one that I was looking for. It's definitely a little finer than the cretan type, and the seller was using it with water where it sheds nothing at all and is literally a burnisher. I was worried at first that it might be quartz, but a little bit of lubricant and it woke up.

It's a little lighter than most of the more black colored stones, but it's definitely novaculite, and feels very similar to the cretan but finer. Fast cutter, too. For some reason, it didn't get much traffic on ebay and I got it for the opening bid - about 1/2 - 1/3rd of what some of the English-sold stones have brought.

 

[essexalan]

DW does that stone bear any resemblance to the Cretan stone you purchased? There have been a few on UK ebay similar to the above being sold as Turkey stones they seem to have an almost translucent look to them and contain a few fissures like your one.

 

[D_W]

The stone being sold as cretan in the US, I'm guessing, is the light colored stone that is described in old texts. The old texts say that type, and what I believe the type is above (the darker type, though I'm not sure why this one is brown as opposed to the typical black) are very similar with the white type being slightly less fine. I think that's accurate. They feel almost the same once I woke up the above stone, but I can tell there is a slight difference in fineness (either is fine enough, though).

The brown turkey stone (if I can be so presumptuous to call it that given that it's not the typical black) has a lot more fissures in it and is a lot more irregular than the white cretan (which turns dark gray once it's oiled).

Do you have an ebay number to one of the stones you're talking about? I'd like to see if it's the same as the stone that's being sold as a cretan in the US.

 

[essexalan]

The stones sold by the Greek knife shop look a bit like this 371779352254, not sure what this one is 291932471385 perhaps a black Turkey stone? The others that are now gone were quite glassy and vari-coloured but contained the fissures plus a translucent look to them. Hard to tell from ebay pictures but AFAIK they were not UK extracted stones, I did read that the black Turkeys were somewhat fragile.

 

[D_W]

The first one looks more like my brown stone and less like a cretan, but it's so dirty that it's hard to tell.

I'm not sure what the second one is, but it doesn't look like either of mine. The white and gray type look like these, and I think these are the lighter type described in the old texts. I think anything with a significant amount of flake is more like the darker type.

272427927889 (gray)

272307777828 (white)

You can see that the gray and white types have a fair bit of faults in them, but not all over like the black ones or the brown that I showed above. The dark type were called fragile in one of my carving books because they can't sustain any drop. I didn't take mine out of the base, and only fiddled with it long enough to figure out how to get it to cut as it was so burnished from being used with water that it didn't cut at all. (the white cretan cut fast right away - really fast, and has slowed down a little bit, but not much)

The first one you showed is one I'd take a chance on, but not if it goes too high. It seems like there are a whole bunch of dissimilar novaculite hones.

 

[essexalan]

Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece.
The Cretan hone you got would have been freshly flattened so I would expect it to cut faster until the abrasive blunts a bit. I will have to play with various lubes and see what effect I get but then I invariably flatten a used stone when I get it, if it needs it, so I have to use them enough so they work in. Just picked up an LI I think, it is an odd colour, that is glassy smooth and very flat. That LI quarry must have a lot of different layers there.

 

[D_W]

Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece.
The Cretan hone you got would have been freshly flattened so I would expect it to cut faster until the abrasive blunts a bit. I will have to play with various lubes and see what effect I get but then I invariably flatten a used stone when I get it, if it needs it, so I have to use them enough so they work in. Just picked up an LI I think, it is an odd colour, that is glassy smooth and very flat. That LI quarry must have a lot of different layers there.

The cretan is a strange thing. It releases particles fast, almost like a waterstone, but not a really soft one. It doesn't ever get to having a glossy slick feeling surface, it's got bite and it's kind of sloppy to use because it's got particles everywhere, metal filings everywhere, and oil. I think you're right about it cutting fast when new, but for a different reason than a lapped ark. Those cut fast due to small grooves that have hard corners, but the cretan just has particles everywhere when it's new, I'd imagine they're a bit loose because the stone hasn't loaded at all and because whatever saws or laps them probably has the particles loosened. I can't remember what I used it with last, but as easily as it releases particles, anything laminated with iron is going to keep it cutting fast and releasing particles really fast.

Still unfamiliar with the new stone, it took me a while to decide whether or not I wanted to oil the surface as i couldn't believe that water alone would be enough to make it absolutely stop cutting, but it was.

I'd like to have more LI stones, but I'm getting inundated due to my piggishness so I will take a break unless something really pretty comes up for really cheap. The brown turk shown above for $59 was more than I could resist after seeing black ones go for $150+, as rare as they show up, anyway. Even the ones shown on youtube videos are oddballs.

 

[adrspach]

Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
Just to add to your Turkey/Cretan hones have you heard which one was cooked in oil as part of manufacturing process?

 

[D_W]

Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
Just to add to your Turkey/Cretan hones have you heard which one was cooked in oil as part of manufacturing process?

I think it may have been earlier in this thread or mentioned somewhere else that the dark ones that are hard and fragile are like that because they were baked.

 

[essexalan]

Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece.
The Cretan hone you got would have been freshly flattened so I would expect it to cut faster until the abrasive blunts a bit. I will have to play with various lubes and see what effect I get but then I invariably flatten a used stone when I get it, if it needs it, so I have to use them enough so they work in. Just picked up an LI I think, it is an odd colour, that is glassy smooth and very flat. That LI quarry must have a lot of different layers there.

The cretan is a strange thing. It releases particles fast, almost like a waterstone, but not a really soft one. It doesn't ever get to having a glossy slick feeling surface, it's got bite and it's kind of sloppy to use because it's got particles everywhere, metal filings everywhere, and oil. I think you're right about it cutting fast when new, but for a different reason than a lapped ark. Those cut fast due to small grooves that have hard corners, but the cretan just has particles everywhere when it's new, I'd imagine they're a bit loose because the stone hasn't loaded at all and because whatever saws or laps them probably has the particles loosened. I can't remember what I used it with last, but as easily as it releases particles, anything laminated with iron is going to keep it cutting fast and releasing particles really fast.

Still unfamiliar with the new stone, it took me a while to decide whether or not I wanted to oil the surface as i couldn't believe that water alone would be enough to make it absolutely stop cutting, but it was.

I'd like to have more LI stones, but I'm getting inundated due to my piggishness so I will take a break unless something really pretty comes up for really cheap. The brown turk shown above for $59 was more than I could resist after seeing black ones go for $150+, as rare as they show up, anyway. Even the ones shown on youtube videos are oddballs.

These Cretans sound interesting awaiting a response from the GKS. I would have thought that a freshly lapped Ark would have cut faster due to new sharp particles being exposed they release them rather unwillingly in use if at all, bit like some of these much vaunted hard waterstones that need refreshing constsntly. Odd the the new one cuts faster with oil than water but I have noticed something similar with diamond stones which IMO cut a lot better using WD40 or GT85 and no rust problems.

 

[essexalan]

Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
Just to add to your Turkey/Cretan hones have you heard which one was cooked in oil as part of manufacturing process?

I think it may have been earlier in this thread or mentioned somewhere else that the dark ones that are hard and fragile are like that because they were baked.

I have read of stones being baked or cooked but not in oil, I would guess that you would end up with a darkened stone with finer cutting, a "toffee" appearance and probably the process would toughen the stone.

I can imagine such slabs of rock but I would have to see for myself. I was told that when the A road South of CW was revamped then there was a lot of CF just laying around. Undoubtedly a lot of it ended up as road foundation. I would guess that the source of CF covers quite a large area you just have to find accessible outcrops. Interesting that CF seems to come in such odd sizes often narrow, thin and tapered.

 

[D_W]

Speaking of CF - I also just recently got this stone, though it's lighter in person. The seller sold it as a CF, but any stone that's not dark with red streaks in it, I never know as I'm not in the UK and don't have a lot of exposure to the various novaculites there. CF, or is it one of the other novaculites from the UK like LI? It doesn't have any flaky look on the surface like some LI chisels do.

 

[essexalan]

Looks like a CF DW if those marks on the side are reddish brown and not just oil residue, the black spotches may mean LI though. I think the finest CFs had very little discolouration of the honing surface but I might be wrong. I do have an 8 mm thick piece here which is all one colour, needs mounting before I can use it. Now I need a straight razor and really head for the dark side!

 

[D_W]

The most important parts of shaving are the linen (the vintage type that's treated but not abrasive) and the condition of the strop. I bought a lot of hones that are great for sharpening a razor, but my opinion of how it was done most often with old barber hones was to hone short of the edge (which nobody does now) and let the linen and leather keep an edge in shape - which they will do indefinitely if the bevel is kept in correct geometry behind the slightly rounded edge.

I know little about charnley hones other than that I did have one years ago that was uniform green and it was very fine. I have noticed that they are a little bit softer than arkansas stones, but in the opinion of someone who'd only used waterstones, they'd seem extremely hard. You can nick them with carving tools. A little different than the turkish hone criticism for carving tools, that with repeated use they would develop grooves faster than arkansas stones (having two turkish type novaculites now, it's definitely not a short term problem as they'd sharpen carving tools fine - the problem instead would be that they'd leave the edge a little toothy compared to an arkansas stone).

Anyway, pointless ramble. I hope more car boot-ish hones come up here, I think the euro novaculites are interesting now that it's seeming easier to get more than just charns (and the charns are getting less expensive - the one I pictured above is substantial, not narrow, very heavy and the seller accepted 55 pounds for it. Someone on the ground over there may scoff at that, but before global shippers were the norm in the UK, the few who did ship here to the states wanted double that plus some).

I'd give a thumbs up to the razor, though. Every day for me, just seldom honing these days, and I'm sure the linen and leather could make a razor last a comfortable year before even several swipes across a barber hone set the razor up for another hone-free year.

 

[swagman]

DW; it looks like a LI.

 

[adrspach]

Speaking of CF - I also just recently got this stone, though it's lighter in person. The seller sold it as a CF, but any stone that's not dark with red streaks in it, I never know as I'm not in the UK and don't have a lot of exposure to the various novaculites there. CF, or is it one of the other novaculites from the UK like LI? It doesn't have any flaky look on the surface like some LI chisels do.

My educated guess is CF. Watch outy this often have toxic inclusions and are coarser than normal CF. Also should be a bit softer than usual.

 

[D_W]

Nothing toxic on this one, but it could be a little coarse. I won't know until it breaks in because I just lapped it. I'd like if it was a little more coarse than typical as it's going to be used on tools and knives only.

I appreciate the opinion, by the way. I think it's charnley, too.