An 'alternative method'......or cheating.....

[LBCarpentry]

I'm a joiner.

I suppose still a young one compared to most, but at 27 I have my own business and workshop and fully believe I have trained 'properly' and to not lower my standards, just to make an extra £40 a week or whatever savings that corner cutting makes these days.

There is another joiners unit right next to mine and I have been chatting with the owner for the last two weeks. His work looks and is very good and he has the level of joinery knowledge, thought and consideration that I would expect from someone who has been in the game a few years, and actually cares about what they produce.

We were chatting today and he told me that in order to keep his prices down, he doesn't bother rebating and moulding components (doors or windows) any more, but that he actually glue's and pins the rebates/mouldings on after. Obviously this saves him a CONSIDERABLE amount of time.

This is what he now has to do to compete with other joinery firms (he's a lot more well established than I am, and my business is not joinery alone) to keep the work coming in.

He even said my way (rebating, scribing, profiling) was 'old school'

Alternative method? Cheating?

I've been pondering over it all day. What do you think?

At this very end point, i'll say I recently brought a domino 700 for floating tennon joints. So I guess in some form, i'm no better. (but much more acceptable in my eyes :wink: )

 

[pip1954]

hi i would say old school wins and may well last longer =D> (hammer)
pip

 

[Chrispy]

I'm quite suprised that he finds it quicker that way, after all you still have to made the mouldings etc. as well as all that gluing, pinning and filling sounds like he is making work for himself, but he's the expert!

 

[LBCarpentry]

I imagine he just buys lengths of ovolo moulding. Just bang 4 lengths of square cut timber together, pin on 4 lengths of moudling and BANG. I always thought he managed to thrash things out his workshop at a pace! now I know why!

 

[Jacob]

......
We were chatting today and he told me that in order to keep his prices down, he doesn't bother rebating and moulding components (doors or windows) any more, but that he actually glue's and pins the rebates/mouldings on after. Obviously this saves him a CONSIDERABLE amount of time.....

I don't see how it can possibly save any time, unless he simply hasn't the machinery or the skills. It'd obviously take much longer to plane up two pieces of timber and glue/pin them together , compared to just running one piece of timber past a rebate block. No brainer!

 

[Froggy]

I agree with Chrispy - can't see where he's saving time there!

 

[SBJ]

It probably depends on how he is set up and how he makes them as to whether it's that much quicker. A decent spindle with the right tooling, tenoner and mortiser and it can be quite quick.

As for cheating, no I don't think so, just a different product. Depends on how he's selling it really.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

To be quicker he would have to buy the moulding in or run up loads at a time. I don't see it as cheating as long as it isn't compromising the strength, features or usability. But from what you have said he is making I can't see where its time saving, running timber through a cutter once is faster to me then measuring and mitering moulding, gluing, pinning, sinking pins (even with air or gas nailers not even pin goes under), filling, sanding and cleaning up the glue.

When making kitchen doors and windows the cutters do all the jointing work so to save time he would have to butt joint .....

 

[Jelly]

Not knowing the scale of his operation, I don't know how relevant this is, but...


Having worked on a window production line, a well thought out design* and the right equipment can make it a very fast process.

With 7 types of casement windows in production, standardising ancilary items then keeping them in stock allowed for faster changeover times and fewer changovers on the machining side... It also decreased material waste, as protruding parts can be glued on rather than requiring the removal of stock.

We had pneumatic cramps with jigs, using that setup putting a head-drip or cill on took 30-45 seconds, with all pins driven from the sides facing the brickwork.

Back when they made only one type of casement window, they came out of the DET and four sider ready to use and assembly was undoubtably faster; however, as uPVC started to gain traction, the profitability was increasingly in being able to provide exactly what a customer wanted, rather than simply in churning out a great volume of one design, the new process optimises overall production speed over a wide range of product lines.

FWIW, I always felt that it compromised the product, but not unacceptably so. For instance moving from stub tennoned to coped and glued joints for window bars for instance adds an extra set of points for potential failure...

*If you read some of my other posts, you'll see how when using this style of construction ill considered design (say, of sliding sash window frames) can result in dramatic wastes of manpower, time and materials.

 

[templecarpentry]

In my opinion, i am 28 and have my own workshop, i work alone and have had alot of experience in my area for my age.

I think the future will hold many regrets for the production techniques we employ today. Bypassing traditional methods to shortcut refined techniques will only ever come back to bite us in the future.

When i first started out, i was in it for the money. It was just a job. I was cutting corners everywhere and also wondering why i wasnt getting any referrals or job satisfaction. I was constantly worried about getting call backs for corner cutting and it was very tiring having to deal with the stress of that playing on my mind.

A significant occurrence happened in my life that coaxed me to look at my career and i started to change.

Now i will only do a job the right way, never cutting corners. If something is laborious and seems like a chore, i look at the end picture and the respect i earn from producing quality products and work. I always explain to my clients that i will never compromise quality for price, even if i have to take a knock in profit to accommodate their budget, rather than a knock in quality for the profit to stay the same.

In short (but this is long now!?) i think you should do what you feel is right and not what you see others doing. This might be the one thing that sets you aside from your competitors and you can use it as a positive aspect of your sales patter when speaking with clients.

The guy next door may have a job and a workshop, but you will have a respectable career.

P

 

[heimlaga]

I am 31 doing mostly carpentry but since a year I also do the odd piece of joinery in my own shop.

Normally I ask the customer whether they want a long lasting product or a cheap product. If they want it cheap I cut corners and make it cheap but tell them that I do it at their own risk. If they want it long lasting I make it to my own standards and stand behind everything. It is their own choice.

As far as I know all glue joints in a window will fail sooner or later. The weather exposure is too hard for any glue. I care too much about my reputation to use glue in a window if I can avoid it.

 

[LBCarpentry]

I'm almost certain that if I was to M&T 4 square components together, mitre in 4 lengths of bought-in moulding, pin, fill and prime, I could do it 40% quicker than doing it the proper way.

I agree with you temple, If something is going to take longer than I thought, no matter how painstakingly (ooooohhh how it always is) long it could be. I never think "Christ i'll cut a few corners so I'm still hitting my day rate". Everyone can make a nice job of something, it's doing it consistently and within the agreed budget that will earn your rep.

Heimlaga - What do you use to aid your joint strength? I hardly think that using wood glue in window construction will ruin your reputation. The joints usually do go at some point but IMO almost every time its down to lack of maintenance.

 

[Jelly]

IIRC the windows I was making used PVA glue exclusively... I understand from the sales dept that they are offered with a 10 year unconditional warranty including the paintwork and a 70 year warranty on the structural integrity of the window conditional on the owner maintaining them as reccomended...

My parents house still has its original sliding sash windows, they're 111 years old this year and made of redwood... My father grumbles at having to sand, undercoat and paint them every 5 years or so, but abhors the idea of replacing them, one of the sashes has an ugly repair where it had the beginings of wet rot when they bought the house, but it demonstrates how long a timber window can last well maintained.

That would be consistent with your thinking there LB...

 

[twothumbs]

An interesting and difficult question LBC. It is not about being modern rubbish or old fashioned is best, but about realising the potential of new materials and techniques, and that is not necessarily easy for you to do. It can take time and can be a brave move sometimes, but......................

I can remember when flush panel doors were less than admired and where would be without flush panelled fire doors today, or when I was pulled up for using plastic membrane beneath concrete; the council insisted on felt with sweated lapping joints (50 years ago), or the council which had to be persuaded to accept the new bolted (Timesaver) cast iron drainage (30+ odd years ago). Flash band as a temporary solution (35 years ago?), or external screws must be brass.....could have been galvanised or now stainless. Rebated worktops ( 50 years ago) to take a hardwood edge, made out of say ex. 45mmx25mm h/wood to give a 12mm fore-edge (high wastage), pinned edges, banded edges. Expanding foam as a good alternative to sleeves and mortar fill. Or biscuit jointing, or Formica worktop surfaces, or alternative hardwoods, or chipboard (well OK there!). Water based paints (took a long time to perfect though). Or pvc electrical wiring to last 25 years, now well past that estimate thank goodness. Does anyone use clay drainage pipes anymore rather than upvc? The mini skirt! Plastic trunking. Plastic domestic plumbing. Dowelled door stiles and jambs (not so good but in the right or wrong place?), PVC glues, door frame without haunches, ands it goes on and on.

What one has to do is assess, evaluate, and accept the advantages of new tools, materials, techniques and use them to advantage, alternatively, reject but do consider them carefully, or let someone else try them and see how they get on......sink or swim idea. There is no point in doing a wonderful job ‘in the old ways’ but go out of business in the process, and I have seen that happen. I’ve seen wonderful old forms go down the tube. Use the new wisely to your advantage. I have also worried many times overnight at poor standards or things not quite right.....but oh dear how I have suffered for it. I had a contracts manger who was happy to get away with things ‘It will do’ approach. My solution was to say.....’so when you bring your grandson down you can tell him his granddad built this 20 years ago, built it wrong then and look it’s still wrong now. He would grumble but change it!

Change is inevitable and of course it is never for the better (old man speaking now), the trick is to embrace the right or best changes to suit your working and skills and importantly your customers. An alternative is to secure work which caters for your likes and skills, eg national trust or local historic owner or church if that fits. The trick is to adapt with knowledge and confidence. Keep your standards they are worth fighting for but don’t lose sight of the fact you need to eat. Show your customers why you are enthusiastic and proud of your quality work, the srwes used, the grain, the shine, etc.

A bit long winded but I hope this is thought provoking but supportive and every best wish in your dilemma. You are one of a small band which may be getting smaller but proud and respected.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Slightly off thread, but relevant. An aquaintance of mine that makes box frame windows soaks the parts in preservative before assembly and primes the finished window before supply. He prices this in, and if the customer doesn't like it, he doesn't do the job. He's had too many people come back to him two or three years after he'd made the window, complaining of of rot - when the customer has fitted the window and not got around to painting it.

 

[heimlaga]

I was thinking about longitudial glue joints. I sometimes glue corner joints and sometimes peg them the old way.