Am I the only person depressed by the number of comments with gender or racial stereotypes in them?

[Phil Pascoe]

And finally Godwin's reared his head.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Making the most of something that's happening or has happened isn't quite the same as willing it or causing it to happen.

 

[Fergie 307]

He did not realise Churchill was looking for something that he could be remembered for, Churchill probably just though a little conflict and I will be remembered for preventing Poland and such becoming German, he should have kept his nose right out of it and been more political.

breathtakingly lack of even a basic understanding of events. Our commitment to the Poles was made prior to him even coming to power. He just took the rather old fashioned view that if you promise to do something you ought to actually do it, as opposed to many in the establishment who were quite ready to appease Hitler and to hell with everyone else. Hitler had assumed that the British were personified by invertebrates like Chamberlain, and would cave in as soon as things got difficult. If Churchill had indeed kept his and our noses out of it then we might well be having this conversation in German.

 

[JobandKnock]

I think it may be tin hats and popcorn time again any moment now, with dangerous views that question the perfection of our erstwhile wartime leader

If you go back just a generation or maybe two there were still people in some communities who would spit on the ground at the mention of the name Churchill. Granted they tended to be ex-miners who knew about Churchill's part in the Tonypandy riots and the General Strike, but he wasn't universally revered. On the other hand had Halifax become Prime Minister, we would possibly have all been speaking German by now, and at least some of those who daubed the word "Racist" on his statue would not have been alive to do so, nor had that freedom of action had they been born

 

[Fergie 307]

If you go back just a generation or maybe two there were still people in some communities who would spit on the ground at the mention of the name Churchill. Granted they tended to be ex-miners who knew about Churchill's part in the Tonypandy riots and the General Strike, but he wasn't universally revered. On the other hand had Halifax become Prime Minister, we would possibly have all been speaking German by now, and at least some of those who daubed the word "Racist" on his statue would not have been alive to do so, nor had that freedom of action had they been born

Indeed. I wouldn't pretend for a moment that Churchill was universally revered, or even that he was a particularly nice individual. He was an outstanding leader in the circumstances, probably one of the best examples of "cometh the moment cometh the man" As you say there is a certain irony in people daubing graffiti on the statue of a man who did so much to ensure that they should have that right. Funny old world.

 

[Spectric]

If Churchill had indeed kept his and our noses out of it then we might well be having this conversation in German.

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

 

[Adam W.]

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

Gawd!

Germany is higher up the economic ladder because of the Mittelstand and their policy of retaining and developing businesses and keeping them in the family, compared to the British sell for a "quick buck".

 

[doctor Bob]

are the mods on holiday?

 

[dizjasta]

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

Operation Sealion was intended by Germany to invade the British Isles. The comment "by getting involved" is not relevant. If the German actions of invasion had not been prevented then it is likely that beside speaking German by now all Jews, all black people, all homosexuals, all disabled people and any other persons not meeting the invaders' ideology would have been destroyed. Is this what you could accept?

 

[doctor Bob]

a fixed event in time forever but it should be possible to learn from it but we don't seem to bother and continue to make the same mistakes.

not me, I knocked over a cup of tea everyday last week on our lounge rug, lesson learnt, never ever let it be said bobby has spilt 8 mugs in a row.

 

[selectortone]

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

How soon we forget. I'm old enough to appreciate that, had the Nazis won the war, life would be VERY different today. My Dad flew Beaufighters in the Med in WWII. He risked his life fighting the Nazis. I'm hugely proud of what he, and all the other brave heroes of WWII, and the millions who sacrificed their lives, gave for what we have today. It might not be perfect, but it could be a sh*tload worse.

 

[Fergie 307]

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

My goodness, have you no idea what the Nazis did elsewhere in Europe?
or would you like to live in a world where Jews, gay people, the disabled and anyone else considered undesireable, or a worthless mouth to feed would simply be exterminated. Where you would risk a similar fate yourself for merely expressing any view critical of the regime. Don't you realise that plans for the administration of Britain under a puppet government had already been drawn up by the Nazis, along with lists of those to be rounded up immediately and disposed of. My father had the misfortune to be one of the early British troops into Belsen, and witnessed at first hand what you naively describe as"just another version of the EU". I suggest you go away and learn something about history before making such stupid remarks.

 

[JobandKnock]

So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU...

Except that the EU doesn't imprison and murder Jews, homosexuals, Romanies, union leaders, churchman, Slavs, etc. Neither does it impress slave labour from captured PoWs and vassal nations. But other than that...

Edit: I really must keep up... At least I won't auction on eBay

 

[Cabinetman]

Somebody who knows about these things told me once that Chamberlain knew exactly what he was doing by appeasing Hitler and it was to give us time to re-arm.

 

[Cabinetman]

On Combat Dealers recently Bruce was looking at a full set of invasion plans, every British town and city everything of interest marked, power, industries everything, The Germans had been preparing to invade Britain for quite a while.

 

[Jacob]

It is a really good example of not learning from history, did we not lose enough people first time round. Apart from the fact we don't speak German did we really win that war, was it worth the huge loss of lives and the massive debt incurred because it seems that Germany is now further up the economic ladder than us, by getting involved we added fuel to the fire. So Germany occupies Europe, would that have not just been a version of the EU, they certainly are a major voice in it today and I doubt they would have come close to an empire the size of the Roman empire and at the end of the day that just faded out.

Nonsense, as others have pointed out!
But there is an echo of the Roman Empire in the EU.
In 212 Emperor Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all the free men of the empire, which extended from Hadrian's Wall to Syria.
Arguably this is what made the Roman Empire such a success for such a long time.
The equivalent of freedom of movement - the most radical thing about the EU in my opinion. Not a take over or subjugation; merely enlightened new management with new privileges in a peaceful world.
EU is likely to be still flourishing when the UK has disunited and finally returned to the dark ages, which is happening at a pace. Coincidence that woad is blue?

 

[Jacob]

On Combat Dealers recently Bruce was looking at a full set of invasion plans, every British town and city everything of interest marked, power, industries everything, The Germans had been preparing to invade Britain for quite a while.

Lest we forget - with the help of a large number of collaborators Category:British collaborators with Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

 

[RobinBHM]

the most radical thing about the EU in my opinion.

I agree -an incredible opportunity of freedom -ability to live, work, retire in a choice of 27 other countries.

its a huge loss.

 

[Fergie 307]

Given your previous remarks about colonialism that is an extraordinary post. Did people from Hadrians wall to Syria invite the Romans in to govern them? I think not, they conquered them and made slaves of great numbers of the population. Let's not forget that slavery was an integral part of the Roman Empire, where citizens were vastly outnumbered by slaves. As for a peaceful world I think you will find it hard to find any extended period in the history of the Roman empire when they weren't at war with somebody, or ruthlessly putting down revolts by their less enthusiastic subjects. You really need a trip to Specsavers, see if you can get some with clear lenses rather than the rose tinted ones you seem to favour.

 

[Jacob]

Given your previous remarks about colonialism that is an extraordinary post. Did people from Hadrians wall to Syria invite the Romans in to govern them? I think not, they conquered them and made slaves of great numbers of the population. Let's not forget that slavery was an integral part of the Roman Empire, where citizens were vastly outnumbered by slaves. As for a peaceful world I think you will find it hard to find any extended period in the history of the Roman empire when they weren't at war with somebody, or ruthlessly putting down revolts by their less enthusiastic subjects. You really need a trip to Specsavers, see if you can get some with clear lenses rather than the rose tinted ones you seem to favour.

Yes to the colonialism obviously, Boudica et al. But after that they did sustain the empire in relatively civilised way, for the times at least. I picked this up from Mary Beard. I'm not seeking to defend colonialism but it's one way they managed to hang on to it. Constitutio Antoniniana - Wikipedia
Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable.