Am I the only person depressed by the number of comments with gender or racial stereotypes in them?

[JobandKnock]

Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable.

Maybe. But was it more or less like the indented servitude system which was used to supply labour to the Americas in the early days? (and which continued to be used, after a fashion for some apprenticeships in the UK until the 1970s). As for the "British/American" model, why call it that? There were many more slaves in India, China and the Arab world who had little or no freedom

 

[Fergie 307]

Yes to the colonialism obviously, Boudica et al. But after that they did sustain the empire in relatively civilised way, for the times at least. I picked this up from Mary Beard. I'm not seeking to defend colonialism but it's one way the managed to hang on to it. Constitutio Antoniniana - Wikipedia
"Citizens" didn't include slaves, women and a few other categories. Roman slavery wasn't as absolute as the British/American model and was transmutable - they weren't seen as an inferior class, more like indentured servants.

it's certainly true that many personal slaves were highly valued by some owners, and that many were freed by their masters as a reward for their service. But these tended to be personal maids, manservants and other as it were "front of house" slaves. As for the rest, and the Romans very civilised rule
I must have misunderstood the bit where prisoners of war were forced to fight each other to the death in 're enactments of historical battles, or be torn apart by animals for public entertainment. As of course were many "indentured servants", think they were known as gladiators but maybe I got that wrong too. And the wholesale butchery they often engaged in when putting down revolts. How many thousands of slaves did Crassus crucify in the aftermath of the slave revolt? Not sure the EU would be particularly keen on the comparison.

 

[Jacob]

Maybe. But was it more or less like the indented servitude system which was used to supply labour to the Americas in the early days?

Yes including Irish and others dispossessed

(and which continued to be used, after a fashion for some apprenticeships in the UK until the 1970s). As for the "British/American" model, why call it that? There were many more slaves in India, China and the Arab world who had little or no freedom

Because the British/American model was what I had in mind.

 

[Jacob]

it's certainly true that many personal slaves were highly valued by some owners, and that many were freed by their masters as a reward for their service. But these tended to be personal maids, manservants and other as it were "front of house" slaves. As for the rest, and the Romans very civilised rule
I must have misunderstood the bit where prisoners of war were forced to fight each other to the death in 're enactments of historical battles, or be torn apart by animals for public entertainment. As of course were many "indentured servants", think they were known as gladiators but maybe I got that wrong too. And the wholesale butchery they often engaged in when putting down revolts. How many thousands of slaves did Crassus crucify in the aftermath of the slave revolt? Not sure the EU would be particularly keen on the comparison.

Yes to all that but nevertheless - it is argued that Caracalla introduced a unifying element into the Roman empire which helped it survive for so long. Mary Beard said it so it must be true!

 

[Adam W.]

I'll go with whatever Mary Beard says.

 

[Jacob]

I'll go with whatever Mary Beard says.

Oddly enough I was reading Mary B's book before a cycle tour of N England just before the referendum. Wallsend to St Bees and back in a big loop. We dropped in on bits of Hadrian's wall and the museum at Maryport. On view were memorials as left by departing Roman squads, from odd corners of the empire and some now returning as far as Syria.
Later on in a nice little cafe with excellent cream teas we asked the little old lady behind the counter what she thought of the pending referendum. She lit up in a rage and started going on about immigrants - "it's these Syrians you know, they've all got mobile phones". Weird coincidence.

 

[doctor Bob]

Oddly enough I was reading Mary B's book before a cycle tour of N England just before the referendum. Wallsend to St Bees and back in a big loop. We dropped in on bits of Hadrian's wall and the museum at Maryport. On view were memorials as left by departing Roman squads, from odd corners of the empire and some now returning as far as Syria.
Later on in a nice little cafe with excellent cream teas we asked the little old lady behind the counter what she thought of the pending referendum. She lit up in a rage and started going on about immigrants - "it's these Syrians you know, they've all got mobile phones". Weird coincidence.

I met a few remainers who called people who didn't agree with them "members of the german national socialist party 1933-1945", one of them was a little old man, every side has odd bods. They should all know better. These little tittle tattle stories are pointless.

 

[Adam W.]

I met a few remainers who called people who didn't agree with them "members of the german national socialist party 1933-1945", one of them was a little old man, every side has odd bods. They should all know better. These little tittle tattle stories are pointless.

Life's full of stories, eh?

I thought Brexit was done and leave/remain was so last season.

 

[doctor Bob]

Life's full of stories, eh?

I thought Brexit was done and leave/remain was so last season.

Couldn't agree more, some won't let sleeping dogs lie though.

 

[Adam W.]

Maybe, but the rift runs deep with a lot of people and it's going to take a while for many to get over it.

 

[JobandKnock]

Yes including Irish and others dispossessed.

Actually a number of my forebears travelled to the USA as indentured labourers in the 18th century. Like many others in England, Scotland, Wales as well as other European countries they were attempting to escape the grinding poverty, constant risk of death or serious injury and shortened life spans which came with being colliers or miners. It wasn't just an Irish thing.

 

[RobinBHM]

I thought Brexit was done

It's far from done, it's being kept from the news by Covid.

 

[Adam W.]

I realise that, but this thread is edgy enough already without adding it to the mix.


'scuse the pun.

 

[Jacob]

Actually a number of my forebears travelled to the USA as indentured labourers in the 18th century. Like many others in England, Scotland, Wales as well as other European countries they were attempting to escape the grinding poverty, constant risk of death or serious injury and shortened life spans which came with being colliers or miners. It wasn't just an Irish thing.

Clearance of the Highlands, Common land enclosures, plantations in Ireland, not to mention the conquest of Wales, created a de-facto slave army of the dispossessed. Everything the British establishment did in the colonies they practiced first on the citizens of Britain, and exported many and slaves/"indentured workers" to America and/or criminalised them so they could be sent to Australia. and so on. It's in the book: Verso

 

[Spectric]

Operation Sealion was intended by Germany to invade the British Isles. The comment "by getting involved" is not relevant. If the German actions of invasion had not been prevented then it is likely that beside speaking German by now all Jews, all black people, all homosexuals, all disabled people and any other persons not meeting the invaders' ideology would have been destroyed. Is this what you could accept?

But we do not know what would have actually happened because that timeline never occured, you cannot change the past but the present will change the future.

 

[D_W]

It's far from done, it's being kept from the news by Covid.

Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
.




....

 

[John Brown]

Hopefully they'll finish it and move on soon so that the people who voted for it don't have their rights violated by a protesting and grandstanding minority of the populaton.
.




....

It wasn't a minority of the population. Just a.minority of voters. Not the same thing.

 

[D_W]

ahh, the old 'i'll make a claim and you can't prove it because they didn't vote, but if they could've it would've been different therefore brexit is illegitimate".

Very freshman college humanities major, that.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It wasn't a minority of the population. Just a.minority of voters. Not the same thing.

The only minority that matters.

 

[Jacob]

It's a real conundrum; what should be done when there has been a democratic decision to do something irremediably stupid and damaging?