Alternative joining method

[Jacob]

.....Here are some images of a Dowelmax joint:

View attachment 101067

........

Just revisiting this image - could be a chair/table leg joint?
It involves 24 holes accurately positioned and 12 dowels to fill them. Same joint with M&Ts involves 2 holes only and no dowels or loose tenons at all, though you do have to shape 2.

 

[Spectric]

Hi

It involves 24 holes accurately positioned and 12 dowels to fill them. Same joint with M&Ts involves 2 holes only and no dowels or loose tenons at all, though you do have to shape 2.

It is not difficult to accurately position those holes using a Dowelmax, you will get issues if the workpiece is more square than rectangular because the holes can meet. If I had the skills/confidence then the good old M&T would be my choice for this type of joint but for now I am using dowels and also Dominos, but hopefully honing other skills in the time that should now be freed up.

 

[recipio]

Check out the Beadlock system sold by Rockler the US.Two mortises sre drilled out and the special loose tenons are inserted. A simple idea but the fit is so tight it needs clamping
I think it is a brilliant and cheap system and made a set of dining chairs 6 years ago which are still rock solid.
Too bad it is imperial only and the special router bit to make the tenons is a one off expense.

 

[johnnyb]

After buying a df700 finding it inaccurate then eventually selling it I've got a foot in both camps. Notably I mostly use mortice and tenons in one guise or another. There good because there controllable and accurate and blooming strong. I'm intrigued by the dowel max for joints that aren't that easy to make. I've also considered a slot morticer for my planer but there a pain to take off/ back on to use the planer. But they are accurate which is more than my domino... a simple table corner begs for a m and t. We used barefaced tenons on big pine kitchen tables. It's the change of fashion that put pay to them not falling apart.

 

[Beau]

After buying a df700 finding it inaccurate then eventually selling it I've got a foot in both camps. Notably I mostly use mortice and tenons in one guise or another. There good because there controllable and accurate and blooming strong. I'm intrigued by the dowel max for joints that aren't that easy to make. I've also considered a slot morticer for my planer but there a pain to take off/ back on to use the planer. But they are accurate which is more than my domino... a simple table corner begs for a m and t. We used barefaced tenons on big pine kitchen tables. It's the change of fashion that put pay to them not falling apart.

Hi John. I'm looking at getting the larger Domino jointer and in doing so stumbled across this discussion. Can I ask in what way its inaccurate? For that money I would be expecting fast, precise joints

 

[Spectric]

Can I ask in what way its inaccurate? For that money I would be expecting fast, precise joints

That is the £1000 question, it is fast and makes great oblong dowel holes but for me and others the location has caused issues. If it was 100% bang on then why are there aftermarket products such as the Domi plates started by Senaca woodworking, the Domino alignment jig (DAJ) from FC tools and the Woodpeckers Offset Base System for Festool Domino at £590 from here

https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/w...hJj-umiEJvBziJLcPwdXJiUE6YrqQgTjZhYvjZv0zu3SE

I think that the reason for the loose settings on both the domino machines is simply to accomodate the slight misalignment, if you use the loose setting then alignment is not a big issue and it appears to be accurate. The loose setting on the 700 is really too loose, so someone on this forum suggested that rather than use the loose setting just ease the sides of the oblong dowel instead. I must admit that having come from using dowels where precision is critical that I have issues with sloppy fitting dowels round or oblong. If my dowel jigs can allow me to lay a pattern of twenty dowels and achieve perfect joint closure then I would expect something similar from a £1000 domino 700.

At the moment I have not been using my XL700 and instead have been using my Jessem dowel jig but the concept of the domino is great and so at some point I will spend some more time and try further ideas, there is also some product in the pipe line from a woodworking company we all know which I hope might be the solution, I can only hope.

The other great thing about the domino is that it is fast, much faster than dowels and so would be a great asset plus I like the idea of joining wood with wood, the other tool out there is the Lamello P2 with it's plastic / nylon P connectors but that is using plastic to join wood which I seem to have some issue with, maybe it is really just the cost of both the machine and connectors !

I'm intrigued by the dowel max for joints that aren't that easy to make

The dowelmax is an amazing doweling jig, once you master the concept then it is so easy to place a pattern of dowels in a workpiece and mirror the pattern on the other piece, if you have a line of say twenty five dowels then think how precise each one must be for that joint to close, just 0.125mm out on each and the total error will be such it would not close. This is no longer supported in the UK, the Jessem jig is the next best in my opinion.

So John the decision is yours, ideally it would be great if you could handle and use one before purchase so maybe a trip to Axminster is a solution as it is a big expense.

 

[johnnyb]

It just didn't allow the faces of things to line up as well as I would like. It was not precise at all.

 

[johnnyb]

I found the smaller one fine though

 

[johnnyb]

I would even suggest a slot morticer is a far superior device.

 

[Citracal]

The domino is only as accurate as the person using it, the machine is tried and tested, if you're finding it inaccurate I'd say the most likely culprit is the user not the tool.

 

[Citracal]

When considering the larger sized machine I think you have to ask yourself what size material you think you're going to be working with. At my last job we produced all manner of solid wood furniture and between all the makers in the place I might have seen the df700 picked up once in two years. Not that it's a bad machine just for furniture you rarely need something that size, why have something more cumbersome than it needs to be. We used traditional mortice and tenon joints, done on the tenoner and morticer, for all chairs as they need to be tolerate a lot of force but for making up frames, cabinet doors, panels you cannot beat the speed of the domino.

 

[Spectric]

I found the smaller one fine though

I would say that the 500 is more manageable and with a lot less plunge depth then easier to use.

 

[Beau]

When considering the larger sized machine I think you have to ask yourself what size material you think you're going to be working with. At my last job we produced all manner of solid wood furniture and between all the makers in the place I might have seen the df700 picked up once in two years. Not that it's a bad machine just for furniture you rarely need something that size, why have something more cumbersome than it needs to be. We used traditional mortice and tenon joints, done on the tenoner and morticer, for all chairs as they need to be tolerate a lot of force but for making up frames, cabinet doors, panels you cannot beat the speed of the domino.

Yes I did spend some time thinking about this. I suspect 8mm dominoes would be what I would mainly use but having them only penetrate 25mm feels a bit short hence the larger machine with a deeper cut. I know if I was making larger cupboard doors I would probably do my mortice and tenons at least 35mm long

 

[Matthew Woodworks]

Yes I did spend some time thinking about this. I suspect 8mm dominoes would be what I would mainly use but having them only penetrate 25mm feels a bit short hence the larger machine with a deeper cut. I know if I was making larger cupboard doors I would probably do my mortice and tenons around at least 35mm long

I use the 700 a lot and have found experience with handling machine eventually pays off as I get bang on joints. I use the loose setting and let the glue do the work. It just takes time getting really used to the machine. I make a jig to make sure the joints are aligned

 

[Spectric]

I use the loose setting and let the glue do the work. It just takes time getting really used to the machine. I make a jig to make sure the joints are aligned

I think that is the issue because you don't expect to spend a grand and then have to make or buy jigs and compromise.

Just revisiting this image - could be a chair/table leg joint?
It involves 24 holes accurately positioned and 12 dowels to fill them. Same joint with M&Ts involves 2 holes only and no dowels or loose tenons at all, though you do have to shape 2.

The elephant in the room is skill, with the dowel jig anyone can drill the 24 holes but a mortice and tennon requires a different skill set which if I was a lot younger I would take the time to learn. Now if I accepted the Festool concept then I could easily make a sloppy M&T but it would have no strength.
This is what puts a skilled furniture maker into a different league when compared to an MDF box maker.

 

[Jacob]

I think that is the issue because you don't expect to spend a grand and then have to make or buy jigs and compromise.


The elephant in the room is skill, with the dowel jig anyone can drill the 24 holes but a mortice and tennon requires a different skill set which if I was a lot younger I would take the time to learn. Now if I accepted the Festool concept then I could easily make a sloppy M&T but it would have no strength.
This is what puts a skilled furniture maker into a different league when compared to an MDF box maker.

Well yes point taken, but I do think there is another element behind the "assisted" methods, which is that they look simple, or obvious, or carefully thought out, or with fancy bits of kit, so that an unconfident person is likely to have more faith and persist longer in making them work successfully for him.
Whereas the same person might give up much sooner doing it the "hard" way.
Most obvious and extreme with sharpening, where the simple trad methods are vastly superior to the whole extravagant rag-bag of ideas around modern sharpening.
A beginner is likely to be persist for longer with the gadgets - you get stories of somebody working away for hours with a fancy jig and getting poor results,* whereas he would have given up in desperation after 10 minutes going nowhere freehand!
So it's not only about skill - the assisted methods themselves often involve skill - it's more about persistence and confidence.
Don't give up too soon!
And think of the money you could save.
PS Confession: I do use a mortice machine, but I do DTs entirely freehand because it's quicker and easier.
* one plane blade six hours on a sad facebook page I spotted recently!

 

[Beau]

Thanks Gents. Sounds like it will be fine with a bit of practice.

 

[Spectric]

Whereas the same person might give up much sooner doing it the "hard" way.

That is modern life, look for the easy way even if it will initially be more expensive rather than learn a way of old. I also believe excessive smart phone usage results in an attention span of a goldfish so having to actually do any form of manual work becomes tedious and learning difficult.

Sounds like it will be fine with a bit of practice.

I would still suggest paying Axminster a visit and actually handling the machine and get a demo, it will resolve any issues and give you a start if you do buy one rather than learning from scratch.

 

[Jacob]

That is modern life, look for the easy way even if it will initially be more expensive rather than learn a way of old. I also believe excessive smart phone usage results in an attention span of a goldfish so having to actually do any form of manual work becomes tedious and learning difficult.

Agree. I was looking at the dreadful pictures of piles of swept up cars in the Spanish floods. Fantasising about smaller back lanes with piles of smart phones wrecked beyond further use! Nature sweeping out unwelcome human garbage.

 

[johnnyb]

It's not that domino's are inferior it's just putting 10 large full depth domino's in perfectly is a tricky undertaking. Both for the machine and me. In doors they are hugely inferior being unwedged and quite tiny. (And expensive)