Alcohol units

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RogerS

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Did a bit of calculating this evening. I worked out how much alcohol was in a small 275ml bottle of Becks at 5% alcohol. Gut feel thought it was about a unit. Actually, it's nearer one and a half. So my two bottles before dinner was my recommended daily maximum and that was even before any wine. :oops:

So then I took a look at the bottle of Medoc. 75cl. 12.5%. How many units in a bottle? Almost 10 if we'd finished it off.
 
Yup, scary isn't it. I teach medical students and ask them who the biggest drinkers are as a demographic. Typically they all say 'students' and young people. Its actually the middle class of the type that has a bottle of wine with their evening meal each evening. Do that 7 times a week, with 10 units per bottle per night and you are looking at 70 units a week per couple. Its not unheard of for their to be two bottles - one each, per meal. Add on the occasional beer watching footie or after work drink and liver damage is just around the corner!

Steve
 
Yes it's scary. And when did you last see a supermarket shelf stacked with 12.5%? You have to look hard. I'm here drinking 14% and I've had 3/4 bottle. OK I don't do that every night, but far more often than is good for me.

Some are 15% and if you move from a 12.5% standard to a 15% one, you increase your alcohol intake by 25% without actually changing your drinking habits.

I've actually cut down in recent weeks (but not tonight - We Need To Talk.....), I spent two weeks (almost)dry in Zambia and have drunk less since returning. I've lost half a stone in the process (although whether an impending divorce will make me lose more weight through stress or gain it from eating and drinking for comfort, only time will tell).

Yes it's a concern.

But what the hell.
Cheers!
Steve
 
Annoying too that it is really hard to buy beers with lower alcohol content. A few years ago most canned lagers were 3.5 or 4% ... now it is hard to find anything under 5%.
 
Ironballs":3evxnnxg said:
You serious about the divorce Steve or just a bit of banter? Hope it's the latter

Sadly it's not banter. Anyone know where I can store an entire workshop for an indefinite period of time?

:(

But back to alcohol eh?
S
 
I have given up completely been dry for 4 months now, I now sleep better and don't get indigestion like I used to. I have also lost weight and have more money to spend. The main reason for giving up was all the rubbish I am dealing with at the moment could easily make me go the other way and drink to much.
 
Don't even want to think what my wine consumption is, all I do know is that it's too much.

Sorry to hear that news Steve.
 
People who drink more than the government's recommended amount and either don't wish to change their ways or are unable to, can always take comfort in this Times report which debunks the medics. I heard Richard Smith being interviewed on the radio shortly after this report came out and he acknowledged its accuracy.
 
Sorry to hear that Steve

With regard to booze, I'll generally steer clear during the week and just have some at the weekend
 
Gill":ihvdw3on said:
People who drink more than the government's recommended amount and either don't wish to change their ways or are unable to, can always take comfort in this Times report which debunks the medics. I heard Richard Smith being interviewed on the radio shortly after this report came out and he acknowledged its accuracy.

I'd forgotten that report, Gill! Bit like the advice to drink 2 litres of water a day.
 
Hmm, not quite sure it debunks the medics Gill. It doesn't say that alcohol is good or bad, merely that the limit recommended may be inaccurate in terms of health/risk benefit, having been arbitrarily decided.

Consider the question - is alcohol good or bad for you? In excess most people would agree that it is bad for you. The trick is trying to define what 'in excess' means. And also how you define risk in health terms. We have been through an analogous situation with smoking. 50 years ago it was 'cool' and everyone did it. Now nobody thinks its good for you but argument still rages over passive/direct inhalation, smoking bans in public places, lung transplants for heavy smokers and so on. We even have a measure - known as packyears for smoking. 1 pack per day for 1 year is a packyear. So 10 cigarettes a day for 2 years is also 1 packyear. Even with this calibrated measure argument rages since some effects are reversible, some are cumulative and so on.

Back to alcohol - if everyone agrees 'in excess' is bad, some form of limit needs to be put on 'in excess' to serve as a recommendation for the general public to keep below. Far better from a health perspective to aim for a low limit, far better from a public behaviour/cause of crime/cause of violence point of view to aim for a low limit. Why then should the limit be based solely on long term medical benefit/risk? Answer - bacause it catches the publics attention and makes a handy yardstick to measure intake by. Perhaps 30 units a week is fine, or 50, rather than the current 21. As with all such measures, its only a guideline. In terms of scientific evidence, I disagree with Mr Smith in the Times article. We do actually know quite alot about alcohol levels and epidemiology in a medical context. We (our group at work) have published on alcohol in stroke risk, suggesting alcohol shows a J shaped relationship with stroke risk, the tipping point being an intake of approximately 30g/day. Above this and stroke risk is increased over the general population risk. Now I wouldn't say this was the only evidence, far from it. The bigger problem is that there is so much evidence, much of it contradictory, or in different populations, or different medical conditions, that finding the consensus point for the safe/not safe boundary becomes almost impossible. There will always be someone willing to appear on TV with 'their' study disproving the governments limits. This is proved not only in alcohol but also red meat and cancer risk, mercury in fish stocks, organic v non-organic health benefits being claimed or debunked, and a range of other risks and measures.

Setting realistic limits also works the other way. Ask people what the recommended level of exercise is and most (if they have heard the government adverts) will say 30 mins of moderate exercise per day. Moderate being defined as anything that raises your heartrate - walking to the shops, doing the gardening and so on. Yet a recent study from Canada suggests this has no effect at all, and that an hour a day of exercise hard enough to make you sweat is needed to produce long term health benefits. Try selling that to the general population and see how far you get. 30 mins walking is more achievable than an hour on a treadmill. Same with alcohol - set the limit at 50 and more people will drink up to the 50 limit and feel its acceptable. Alcohol will last longer in the body since its cleared at a constant rate, and drink drive convictions go up. People turn up hungover for work, or dont turn up, all because 50 units is 'safe' so it must be OK to drink 10 units in an evening.

While the limit may be arbitrary, that doesn't mean you should ignore it and define your own measure of 'excessive' alcohol intake (not that you suggested that!). The evidence is out there that alcohol is bad for you, but there is so much of it that you can find evidence for a range of acceptable limits if you feel 21 is not enough for your lifestyle! Government limits are really there for the (sadly quite large) percentage of the population who do not know when 'enough is enough' and are unable to regulate their own intake to acceptable levels. Nanny state - maybe, depends on which side of the line you are observing from I guess.

Steve
 
What's the relationship, Steve, between grams of alcohol and percentage strength or units?

For my part, what has triggered the interest is two-fold. I took part in a research study on NAFLD (Non-alcohol related fatty liver disease) and part of that was an in-depth look at my liver (which I'm happy to say was normal) and I'd like to keep it that way.

But the more interesting (well, for me it is) is that for the last 20 odd years or so (ever since my employment package included private health which in turn included a health check) my red blood cells have measured enlarged...one of the indicators of drinking quantities of alcohol. I have very marginal hypertension. The engineer in me says that if my red blood cells are enlarged then it's going to take more blood pressure to force them through tiny caplliaries ergo hypertension. So if I dramatically cut my alcohol intake for a good three/four months since within that time, all the red blood cells have been replaced. Then retest and see what change there has been. Then talk to my Doc about coming off the tablets and see what happens. Of course, I could be wasting my time!

My B12 levels are also at the very low end which is also an indicator of alcohol so cutting back should improve those levels. That's the theory. Watch this space.
 
What's the relationship, Steve, between grams of alcohol and percentage strength or units

Approximately 8 grams per unit, give or take. It varies by the definition of a unit, which is not always standard. We took grams as a continuous variable since its more powerful statistically than a discrete trait such as units. Thus over 30 grams per day equates to between a pint and a half and two pints of normal beer. That this is approximately 21 units per week is coincidental with the governments limits, since 30g per day was corrected for gender in the risk model, and the use of a continuous trait meant we were not looking specifically at 30g. This is where the limit of population risk fell on the continuous curve.

Steve
 
I think it does, Steve. I agree with you on all counts that excess alcohol is demonstrably bad for you. However, so much depends on how you define 'excess alcohol'. The current definition is, as you say, arbitrary. Yet doctors have adopted the "14 units for a woman, 21 units for a man" mantra as Gospel. I have always regarded doctors as scientists and I am surprised they have accepted such an unscientifically calculated limit so readily.
 
I have always regarded doctors as scientists
:shock: :shock: :shock:

Quite a few scientists will be very upset to read that statement Gill :wink:

I don't think the limits of 14 and 21 were quite as arbitrary as 'well, we've got to think of something lads, lets make it 14 and 21 and nip off to the pub for the evening - I'm parched'. Rather that 14 and 21 represent a compromise between the broadly acceptable evidence and the realism that setting a limit of zero is impossible. That limits are similar across borders is some indication that, unless everyone followed our lead in the UK (highly unlikely) we are all singing from the same songsheet, and mostly from the same line.

Steve.
 
StevieB":2tfp9d6v said:
That limits are similar across borders is some indication that, unless everyone followed our lead in the UK (highly unlikely) we are all singing from the same songsheet, and mostly from the same line.
Why not? It seems to be what happened with all the kerfuffle over global warming
Tinhatsmiley.gif
:) . I can just imagine medics all over the world latching onto the BMA's advice as being the only guidance available from a reputable organisation.

sofa_bricks.gif
 
Because, contrary to popular belief amongst our politicians, the UK is no longer and has not been for some time, a dominant player astride the world stage :wink:

I will side step global warming as being off topic and point you to this link

http://www.drinkingandyou.com/site/uk/biggy.htm

Which suggests that although close, different countries do rate alcohol limits differently.

Steve
 
StevieB":2kkq2y1q said:
Because, contrary to popular belief amongst our politicians, the UK is no longer and has not been for some time, a dominant player astride the world stage :wink:

sure we are - its just that most of our domination buisness is now conducted from our large colony in the western hemisphere (which we allow to believe itself to be independent for reasons of real politik ;) )
 
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