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Rhyolith
Established Member
That sounds like an opinion to me
Where are these numbers?
Bare in mind one of the reasons less people work in manufacturing in the UK is because of automated processes; this does not just effect China. Indeed I belevie the UK actaully manufactures as much as it ever has.
The numbers are readily available, and the maths are fairly easy. The labour cost for a particular skill is easy to obtain on through google for any country. The cost of a container from any country to the U.K. Is also easy to obtain. The transport time and customs duty again is easy to look up. The cost o the c20 weeks inventory in excess of what you would have for manufacturing in the U.K. Is easy to work out and bank interest rates are also very easy to find.
I'm not try to be vague, but know that if I give a specific example I will be shot down as someone will suggest anther product where they believe it won't work, this way anyone can calculate the maximum 'touch' time or labour content in the Uk versus say China for any any product.
Considering the other point raised, the industrial revolution was opposed for allegedly 'taking' away people's jobs, in fact it did the exact opposite and created more jobs as cost effective products created a greater demand. Automation in production not only makes jobs more secure it does In general lead to more jobs. Germany for instance is not lacking in either manufacturing or producing cost effective high quality products. In East Germany labour cost is now about the same as the UK and in West Germany for the same job here in the U.K. It commands a much higher wage / salary.
I'm not try to be vague, but know that if I give a specific example I will be shot down as someone will suggest anther product where they believe it won't work, this way anyone can calculate the maximum 'touch' time or labour content in the Uk versus say China for any any product.
Considering the other point raised, the industrial revolution was opposed for allegedly 'taking' away people's jobs, in fact it did the exact opposite and created more jobs as cost effective products created a greater demand. Automation in production not only makes jobs more secure it does In general lead to more jobs. Germany for instance is not lacking in either manufacturing or producing cost effective high quality products. In East Germany labour cost is now about the same as the UK and in West Germany for the same job here in the U.K. It commands a much higher wage / salary.
AES
Established Member
I think that MAYBE deema has a couple of points correct. BUT:
I think that where a product is produced (I mean which country) has little to do with quality or cost - unless the production is really VERY labour-intensive, the local "man-hour rate" has less to do with the final cost of a product than how long it takes to produce the required quality - i.e. proper management working jointly together to produce the correct quality of product in the correct quantity and within the correct timescale. Make no mistake, China is capable of producing quality product if correct "managed; similarly UK or Germany are equally capable of producing carp - and some do!!! Personal experience.
AND:
For the above to happen, you do need a well trained work force ("shop floor" AND management). I MAY be right in thinking that despite the recent publicity, the old idea of "proper" apprenticeships (for BOTH skilled tradesmen AND for decent managers) have fallen by the wayside in UK. I dunno, but I've personally met some pretty low-grade managers all around the world from all of the above countries named - better at A--- licking and stealing the credit for other people's ideas and efforts than properly motivating and managing any work force!
But perhaps that's just me being a crusty old curmudgeon.
AES
I think that where a product is produced (I mean which country) has little to do with quality or cost - unless the production is really VERY labour-intensive, the local "man-hour rate" has less to do with the final cost of a product than how long it takes to produce the required quality - i.e. proper management working jointly together to produce the correct quality of product in the correct quantity and within the correct timescale. Make no mistake, China is capable of producing quality product if correct "managed; similarly UK or Germany are equally capable of producing carp - and some do!!! Personal experience.
AND:
For the above to happen, you do need a well trained work force ("shop floor" AND management). I MAY be right in thinking that despite the recent publicity, the old idea of "proper" apprenticeships (for BOTH skilled tradesmen AND for decent managers) have fallen by the wayside in UK. I dunno, but I've personally met some pretty low-grade managers all around the world from all of the above countries named - better at A--- licking and stealing the credit for other people's ideas and efforts than properly motivating and managing any work force!
But perhaps that's just me being a crusty old curmudgeon.
AES
Rhyolith
Established Member
The industrial revolution didn't immedaitly leed to mass production and automated production. Indeed I beleive that mass prduction as a concept was a product of the second Industrail revolution (the-second-industrail-revolution-t104432.html) not the first.deema":ck4h6rhm said:
Also I fail to see how automated production would leed to more jobs.
I think AES made the point I was trying to more elequently.Although a nation might be able to create laws and arrangements to help its manufacturing produce higher quality products, I refuse to accept that one will be fundementally better at manufacturing (in terms of quality) than another...
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
deema":eha4rmsa said:
A long time ago I read an article which claimed that using a JCB as an example, there were more man hours taken in its manufacture and continuing use than there ever were saved by displacing the ditch digging navvy. This went right to the beginning with the the miners bringing the ore up, the smelters and processors, the growing of the rubber trees and the tapping of them to make rubber hoses, the research behind the paint and its manufacture, the manning of oil rigs, the refining of the petrol or diesel and so on.
Ultimately pointless, but interesting.
AES
Established Member
The JCB example is certainly interesting, I don't know how valid it is, but even if true it seems to me that missing from the JCB "calculation" is the time taken by the navvy/ies to produce that trench versus the time taken by the JCB. There are many situations where too much time taken really does mean money!
Take my own professional experience as an example - not only because I like aeroplanes but also because the numbers that develop quickly become huge - like several other industries.
Lets take a B747 "Jumbo Jet" or any other modern wide-body passenger jet. At a rough "list price" we're talking about an investment of, say, 150 M USD. Also as an average, that aeroplane will need a major overhaul about every 7 to 10 years (for the nervous amongst you, don't worry, there are "mini overhauls" and checks and rectifications daily, weekly, monthly and annually too!!!).
No airline can invest that sort of capital and have it sitting on the ground doing nothing, "just in case". So there is NO spare aeroplane available top take up the duty when not available for flight. Therefore that major overhaul is very carefully planned, both in terms of when it will happen and also how long it will take. The airlines therefore all plan their flight schedules to allow for overhauls accordingly.
But what if, instead of the planned 8 weeks, that major overhaul suddenly takes 9 weeks? If the overhauler sees that he's running late, he certainly can't suddenly throw more people at the job (even if available), because of the relatively confined space in and around even a big aeroplane - and also by it's very nature, there isn't all that much true automation that can be used on the job - it's obviously not like building cars or washing machines for example.
So just think what that week's delay costs the airline - i.e. there are many cases where even if a certain country has a naturally higher labour rate than another "competing" country, the "country" (i.e. company) that wins the overhaul contract from the airline is the country/company where there is a lot of highly trained expertise available (both hangar floor, workshop, and just as important, management), with them all working in a company environment with a high level of cooperation that in turn produces an on-time/on-budget track record to demonstrate world wide. I can absolutely promise you that there are many countries (i.e. companies) where the "management" just seem completely unable/unwilling to grasp that simple point.
But that track record above requires highly skilled "tradesmen" and managers, so not only does a particular country then need a training infrastructure to be always training new blood (please note, NOT necessarily university graduates, and definitely NOT "meedya studies" or even necessarily MBAs!!!) to allow for natural wastage (retirement, etc). AND that country/company must also ensure that once that expertise exists it is NEVER allowed to disappear. 'Cos once gone, that same expertise is then awfully AWFULLY hard - if not impossible - to rebuild from scratch.
I really do NOT know (no real experience for over 40 years in UK) but I fear that if it's not already too late for UK, it may well become too late very soon now.
I really hope not, and all the politicking aside, I hope Brexit is at least partly responsible for producing the impetus needed - before it's too late.
But as said before I'm just a crusty old curmudgeon.
Windy post, sorry, and not really much to do with AEG tools for DIY
AES
Take my own professional experience as an example - not only because I like aeroplanes but also because the numbers that develop quickly become huge - like several other industries.
Lets take a B747 "Jumbo Jet" or any other modern wide-body passenger jet. At a rough "list price" we're talking about an investment of, say, 150 M USD. Also as an average, that aeroplane will need a major overhaul about every 7 to 10 years (for the nervous amongst you, don't worry, there are "mini overhauls" and checks and rectifications daily, weekly, monthly and annually too!!!).
No airline can invest that sort of capital and have it sitting on the ground doing nothing, "just in case". So there is NO spare aeroplane available top take up the duty when not available for flight. Therefore that major overhaul is very carefully planned, both in terms of when it will happen and also how long it will take. The airlines therefore all plan their flight schedules to allow for overhauls accordingly.
But what if, instead of the planned 8 weeks, that major overhaul suddenly takes 9 weeks? If the overhauler sees that he's running late, he certainly can't suddenly throw more people at the job (even if available), because of the relatively confined space in and around even a big aeroplane - and also by it's very nature, there isn't all that much true automation that can be used on the job - it's obviously not like building cars or washing machines for example.
So just think what that week's delay costs the airline - i.e. there are many cases where even if a certain country has a naturally higher labour rate than another "competing" country, the "country" (i.e. company) that wins the overhaul contract from the airline is the country/company where there is a lot of highly trained expertise available (both hangar floor, workshop, and just as important, management), with them all working in a company environment with a high level of cooperation that in turn produces an on-time/on-budget track record to demonstrate world wide. I can absolutely promise you that there are many countries (i.e. companies) where the "management" just seem completely unable/unwilling to grasp that simple point.
But that track record above requires highly skilled "tradesmen" and managers, so not only does a particular country then need a training infrastructure to be always training new blood (please note, NOT necessarily university graduates, and definitely NOT "meedya studies" or even necessarily MBAs!!!) to allow for natural wastage (retirement, etc). AND that country/company must also ensure that once that expertise exists it is NEVER allowed to disappear. 'Cos once gone, that same expertise is then awfully AWFULLY hard - if not impossible - to rebuild from scratch.
I really do NOT know (no real experience for over 40 years in UK) but I fear that if it's not already too late for UK, it may well become too late very soon now.
I really hope not, and all the politicking aside, I hope Brexit is at least partly responsible for producing the impetus needed - before it's too late.
But as said before I'm just a crusty old curmudgeon.
Windy post, sorry, and not really much to do with AEG tools for DIY
AES
graduate_owner
Established Member
Reference has been made to Black and Decker. Does anyone remember the single speed 3/8" chuck B&D D500? With a circular saw attachment, an orbital sander and a horizontal or ( even better) vertical drill stand you were equipped to tackle just about any DIY job that came along. I thought I was the bees knees with that set up. How things have changed. If I remember correctly you could get the D500 with some attachments plus sanding pad and a lad of sanding discs for £4/19/11 on Exchange and Mart adverts - about £100 in today's money so not peanuts.
K
K
CHJ
Established Member
Did you know you could get the D500 size Drill with different gearboxes, I had standard and slow speed versions, now just have a hybrid of serviceable parts, currently fitted with 5/16" chuck (have the 3/8" version).graduate_owner":281rm2zy said:
Still have the Saw attachment.
Sanding attachment was bypassed for a more robust animal. (circa 1963/4)
Note the Plessey Mk4/Mk7 couplings in the power tool lead, was a time when all my tools were fitted thus.
Those, the Original Workmate and an Arcoy rebater reduced the hand tool work no end.
Attachments
RossJarvis
Established Member
I remember my dad having a gold B&D drill with the circular saw, but never saw it used in anger (he wasn't really into DIY).
Re the questions about whether the UK will regain more of a manufacturing industry, not a chance. I taught engineering practice until recently and am pretty sure that we do not have the infrastructure and definitely not the experience to come back from the massive decline we have experienced over the past 50 years, where on earth do you think we're going to find anyone to train people, we're all nearly dead. In terms of the government's laughable attempts at trying to invest in apprenticeships we may lead the World in hairdressing, retail, hospitality, but making anything, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: We can still lead the World in very high end manufacturing (some of my student's built satellites), but in run of the mill manufacturing on any scale :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Re the questions about whether the UK will regain more of a manufacturing industry, not a chance. I taught engineering practice until recently and am pretty sure that we do not have the infrastructure and definitely not the experience to come back from the massive decline we have experienced over the past 50 years, where on earth do you think we're going to find anyone to train people, we're all nearly dead. In terms of the government's laughable attempts at trying to invest in apprenticeships we may lead the World in hairdressing, retail, hospitality, but making anything, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: We can still lead the World in very high end manufacturing (some of my student's built satellites), but in run of the mill manufacturing on any scale :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
AES
Established Member
I very much fear you may be right Ross Jarvis - I hope to hell you're wrong, but fear you may well be right. Let's hope anyway, and whatever the "politics" and "rights and wrongs" of Brexit, I hope that this sea change just might create some changes in attitudes and thinking about "ordinary, run of the mill" manufacturing - AND "repairing/servicing".
¨
Re old B&D, I too still have some stuff, including an old metal-body drill, and it's all still going strong. For example, just last weekend I was using a B&D circular saw (184 mm in new money) and though it sounds a bit "graunchy" (I really must have a look and the brushes and bearings some time!!!) cutting up some 11 inch x 4 inch pine for a staircase went like a dream (B&D tipped blade). I bought it in 1971, it was a real, top of the line tradesman's tool then, and not cheap (can't remember, 50 quid-ish?). And a very tough nylon/plastic outer motor body (light blue) and metal "silver gearbox". Direct drive of course, and also of course, no guide rail, but it still works very well with the "self-build dummy" rail (thanks for the how-to Steve Maskery!).
I suppose in today's "economic thinking", all the above was a bust for B&D - worked faultlessly for years and never even needed a repair, let alone a replacement. For the buyer, a very good return on investment, for the manufacturer, hopeless.
AES
¨
Re old B&D, I too still have some stuff, including an old metal-body drill, and it's all still going strong. For example, just last weekend I was using a B&D circular saw (184 mm in new money) and though it sounds a bit "graunchy" (I really must have a look and the brushes and bearings some time!!!) cutting up some 11 inch x 4 inch pine for a staircase went like a dream (B&D tipped blade). I bought it in 1971, it was a real, top of the line tradesman's tool then, and not cheap (can't remember, 50 quid-ish?). And a very tough nylon/plastic outer motor body (light blue) and metal "silver gearbox". Direct drive of course, and also of course, no guide rail, but it still works very well with the "self-build dummy" rail (thanks for the how-to Steve Maskery!).
I suppose in today's "economic thinking", all the above was a bust for B&D - worked faultlessly for years and never even needed a repair, let alone a replacement. For the buyer, a very good return on investment, for the manufacturer, hopeless.
AES
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