Incredible how our assumptions work, isn't it ?
We don't even realise when we're doing it half the time.
All the very best of luck and courage to her
Advice to a 15 yo wanting a woodwork career
- Thread starter pe2dave
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Incredible how our assumptions work, isn't it ?
We don't even realise when we're doing it half the time.
All the very best of luck and courage to her
Against_The_Grain
Established Member
In that case, and I am being very serious here, I would be preparing the young lady for one of the most toxic lines of work for women.
There is a colossal disparity between men and woman in the trades, I believe it’s less than 5% of the workforce in the woodworking trades are women. Sexism is rampant in the trades, if anything it is encouraged, though the situation is better than it was years ago.
Still many sites I have been on recently have no WC facilities, with workers expected to find a quiet corner to relieve themselves, I’ve even found this in joinery workshops in the not so distant past where there was no plumbing. Things can only get better of course and some places will be fine, but many places will be very reluctant to take on women because of this.
The women I have worked with have always been way and above for lateral thinking compared to the men, it’s a great shame that so many get scared off by the macho atmosphere.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
I work on the largest heritage sites in London, with principal contractors such as Mc Alpines. The sites are always well run by Mc Alpines, with good welfare facilities. Some of the lesser contractors like McGee are pretty poor in comparison.
It's a very toxic macho man atmosphere on site though, there's no denying that. I love working where I do, but the atmosphere and general belligerence of some of my colleagues wears me out if I'm there for longer than three weeks.
The drug taking on site, with rampant cocaine abuse amongst the workforce, is also very depressing.
There are lots of nice, friendly people there too, which makes up for a lot of the Karp.
It's a very toxic macho man atmosphere on site though, there's no denying that. I love working where I do, but the atmosphere and general belligerence of some of my colleagues wears me out if I'm there for longer than three weeks.
The drug taking on site, with rampant cocaine abuse amongst the workforce, is also very depressing.
There are lots of nice, friendly people there too, which makes up for a lot of the Karp.
If she is interested in luthiery then she should contact Daisy Tempest. From following Daisy online, she appears to be doing luthiery apprenticeships for women.
She could also take a look at the W&A Online course. It features a lot of the content they teach at their fulltime, in person school. The online course is cheap and also gives good discounts at Axminster & Workshop Heaven!
https://www.watersandacland.co.uk/online-furniture-making-course/
That might be a good taster for her to decide whether she'd want to progress to their full time course. I follow them on socials and they have had quite a few female students and I've also seen plenty of people move onto woodworking careers after taking their course - either setting up their own business or working for an established furniture maker
She could also take a look at the W&A Online course. It features a lot of the content they teach at their fulltime, in person school. The online course is cheap and also gives good discounts at Axminster & Workshop Heaven!
https://www.watersandacland.co.uk/online-furniture-making-course/
That might be a good taster for her to decide whether she'd want to progress to their full time course. I follow them on socials and they have had quite a few female students and I've also seen plenty of people move onto woodworking careers after taking their course - either setting up their own business or working for an established furniture maker
pe2dave
Established Member
Thanks. Very useful.
HOJ
Established Member
I can't offer any specific advice in those fields of work, but in my experience, as a full time joiner, I frequently get emails and texts from all ages and genders!
looking for a "job" mostly with terrible introductions, my advice would be to go door knocking, within the area that she can travel to, realistically, no point looking miles away with no means of getting there, which is a regular one for me, as they can't drive or don't have a bike, I would willingly take someone on but the cost of insurance, welfare facilities, H&S etc, and the time that it takes out of the day to mentor, makes it unworkable for me.
looking for a "job" mostly with terrible introductions, my advice would be to go door knocking, within the area that she can travel to, realistically, no point looking miles away with no means of getting there, which is a regular one for me, as they can't drive or don't have a bike, I would willingly take someone on but the cost of insurance, welfare facilities, H&S etc, and the time that it takes out of the day to mentor, makes it unworkable for me.
johnnyb
Established Member
I think I eat from people's sentimentality for a bygone time. Definitely steer her away from any woodworking. Unless she absolutely can't live without making stuff. I mean obsessed.
Against the grains comments seem negative harsh blah but there absolutely truthful and as such should be used to inform life decisions. Choose a career from at least the previous century but better this one.
Against the grains comments seem negative harsh blah but there absolutely truthful and as such should be used to inform life decisions. Choose a career from at least the previous century but better this one.
johnnyb
Established Member
I'm not entirely negative about the future as "the man" has made a good living marking things up made cheaply in china so the wheel turns again. I'm very sorry to see Peter sefton has shut his school doors and is now marking things up that are made abroad. Better to mine the miners so to speak.
Against_The_Grain
Established Member
To extend my negativity further, this line of work is very tasking on the body over a long period. Despite decades of health and safety regulations constantly being updated, there are still thousands of workplaces that flagrantly break the law when it comes to their employee's well-being. The woodworking trades by far have the highest number of serious accidents due to machinery often being used by grossly undertrained operatives, amputations are still reasonably common though not as much as they were in the dark ages before the 1974 HSAWA, and severe cuts are very common. You only have to read some of the more recent cases from the HSE to see that it's still a very dangerous work environment to be in, nobody expects to go to work and get their head scalped by a machine, but someone did quite recently and they will never be the same.
The trade also has the highest number of respiratory illnesses and cancers, with occupational asthma being very prevalent amongst joiners due to years of exposure to wood dust. Some common joinery timbers are termed "sensitiser timbers" where the more a person is exposed to the dust and timber itself, the more of an allergic reaction they will have to it over time which can result in horrendous coughs, rashes, and itchy eyes. Many woodworkers over the years have had to stop woodworking completely because the sensitiser timber has caused sensitivity to all timbers making work impossible. The HSE is getting more firm with companies about enforcing proper dust collection, face masks, and yearly health checkups for employees, but so many companies slip the net and are still operating as if it's 1960 and dust extraction is an optional accessory.
Woodworkers are expected to move around very heavy pieces of timber and finished articles on a daily basis which over years takes its toll on joints and the spine in particular if great care is not taken in using the correct lifting technique. In an engineering setting an overhead gantry crane would often be used to lift anything over 20kg, but a woodworker will often have to maneuver a 50kg 20" x 3" plank of sapele by themselves to break it down into smaller pieces and this is to be expected, if you don't do it you'll likely get the sack and that's just the way it is. On a site, a joiner/second fix carpenter would be expected to fit a fire door by themselves, these weigh anywhere between 40-80kg and they would expect you to fit several a day in a complex and it's mostly fuelled by bravado between work colleagues, "I can fit X amount of FD60 doors in a day", nevermind the fact they will be struggling to walk by the time they're 50.
I've worked in places where the employer is the most dangerous aspect of the workplace, I've seen apprentices pinned up against walls by the scruff of their neck whilst they're being screamed at for a simple mistake, hammers and pieces of timber thrown across the room at employees, employers being quite happy to burden you with totally unrealistic timescales so that you have to work mandatory overtime every day and at the weekend, forcing you to operate a wood burner in the middle of a heatwave, and loads of other very questionable things. This just takes a toll on the mind as well as the body with stress, and it's no wonder some people turn to drugs to take the edge off the working day just to get by, some places are much like a prison.
The trade also has the highest number of respiratory illnesses and cancers, with occupational asthma being very prevalent amongst joiners due to years of exposure to wood dust. Some common joinery timbers are termed "sensitiser timbers" where the more a person is exposed to the dust and timber itself, the more of an allergic reaction they will have to it over time which can result in horrendous coughs, rashes, and itchy eyes. Many woodworkers over the years have had to stop woodworking completely because the sensitiser timber has caused sensitivity to all timbers making work impossible. The HSE is getting more firm with companies about enforcing proper dust collection, face masks, and yearly health checkups for employees, but so many companies slip the net and are still operating as if it's 1960 and dust extraction is an optional accessory.
Woodworkers are expected to move around very heavy pieces of timber and finished articles on a daily basis which over years takes its toll on joints and the spine in particular if great care is not taken in using the correct lifting technique. In an engineering setting an overhead gantry crane would often be used to lift anything over 20kg, but a woodworker will often have to maneuver a 50kg 20" x 3" plank of sapele by themselves to break it down into smaller pieces and this is to be expected, if you don't do it you'll likely get the sack and that's just the way it is. On a site, a joiner/second fix carpenter would be expected to fit a fire door by themselves, these weigh anywhere between 40-80kg and they would expect you to fit several a day in a complex and it's mostly fuelled by bravado between work colleagues, "I can fit X amount of FD60 doors in a day", nevermind the fact they will be struggling to walk by the time they're 50.
I've worked in places where the employer is the most dangerous aspect of the workplace, I've seen apprentices pinned up against walls by the scruff of their neck whilst they're being screamed at for a simple mistake, hammers and pieces of timber thrown across the room at employees, employers being quite happy to burden you with totally unrealistic timescales so that you have to work mandatory overtime every day and at the weekend, forcing you to operate a wood burner in the middle of a heatwave, and loads of other very questionable things. This just takes a toll on the mind as well as the body with stress, and it's no wonder some people turn to drugs to take the edge off the working day just to get by, some places are much like a prison.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Sounds like shiz.
I guess I'm lucky in that I refuse to lift fire doors or sheets of OSB, ply etc. I'm not a macho man and don't give a flying fig for all that bragging nonsense.
It caused some fur and feathers to go airborne in the beginning, which incidentally was my first day working for them, but after a bit of shouting and fuming from the shouty man, calm was eventually restored after I asked him to phone the big boss and now I have two very lovely chaps to call on when I want something humped around.
I let them quietly slope off to the canteen in between, and they gladly lift and shift on request.
I guess I'm lucky in that I refuse to lift fire doors or sheets of OSB, ply etc. I'm not a macho man and don't give a flying fig for all that bragging nonsense.
It caused some fur and feathers to go airborne in the beginning, which incidentally was my first day working for them, but after a bit of shouting and fuming from the shouty man, calm was eventually restored after I asked him to phone the big boss and now I have two very lovely chaps to call on when I want something humped around.
I let them quietly slope off to the canteen in between, and they gladly lift and shift on request.
Ed Weber
Established Member
Well, I'll add if I may, a few things I haven't seen mentioned.
Does this person have any skills? Are they good at their craft?
It's one thing to want to be a woodworker, it's another to be good at it or have a natural talent for it.
Can they complete projects? Have they had any of their work acknowledged or critiqued by a non family member or friend?
Luthier and cabinetmaker are two distinct fields of work, each with it's own sub categories of specialties. this person may need to narrow down the number of areas they wish to pursue.
Does this person have any skills? Are they good at their craft?
It's one thing to want to be a woodworker, it's another to be good at it or have a natural talent for it.
Can they complete projects? Have they had any of their work acknowledged or critiqued by a non family member or friend?
Luthier and cabinetmaker are two distinct fields of work, each with it's own sub categories of specialties. this person may need to narrow down the number of areas they wish to pursue.
I would recommend the guys over at In Her Hands - Login • Instagram
Could be a great place to get some hands on experience with a range of tutors and learn some good like lessons along the way.
Could be a great place to get some hands on experience with a range of tutors and learn some good like lessons along the way.
When i set up my workshop making furniture 35 years ago, in a five mile radius there where six other workshops in operation, now just me and one other that is more joinery based !
In the beginning it was all furniture, when this slowed down i added more joinery, then to make it pay added the
poultry housing, and now its more property maintenance !
At 65 next year, i'm looking to slow down as this year my back is playing up !
Enjoyable, Yes ! Stressful, Yes ! Hard work, Yes !
In the beginning it was all furniture, when this slowed down i added more joinery, then to make it pay added the
poultry housing, and now its more property maintenance !
At 65 next year, i'm looking to slow down as this year my back is playing up !
Enjoyable, Yes ! Stressful, Yes ! Hard work, Yes !
pe2dave
Established Member
This person is 14.
Agree on the latter issue (not an uncommon dilemma at that age)
As touched upon by Richard_c and worn thumbs above…..
If she has a head for heights then rigging and rope access are both very hands on and can involve a lot of problem solving, also if you specialise in or already have a trade skill then you can get good money on the ropes. Rope access isn’t as well paid until you’re experienced and can be boring unless you get in with some interesting work - just ask all the window cleaners, painters, mastic-ers(?!)
Rigging for live events is my bread and butter and that can be really interesting. Again there are boring bits like repetitive arena or rock and roll rigging but I enjoy automation rigging - building the systems that fly performers and scenery across stadiums for opening ceremonies like the London 2012 olympics or Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014.
I also do event carpentry but this is often just knocking flats and staging together with a rattle gun.
The UK film and television industry is booming, with Netflix, Sky, Disney all building or buying studios and I believe there’s plenty work around for skilled chippies, riggers, scenic artists, special effects techs. It’s all been very nepotistic but I think that’s getting less and less the more studios that open.
In summary,
Head for heights: rigging is great fun if you get into the right industry sector.
And/or theatre or film scenery/special effects/carpentry courses and apprenticeships would be great, highly skilled and potentially lead to pretty well paid jobs.
If she has a head for heights then rigging and rope access are both very hands on and can involve a lot of problem solving, also if you specialise in or already have a trade skill then you can get good money on the ropes. Rope access isn’t as well paid until you’re experienced and can be boring unless you get in with some interesting work - just ask all the window cleaners, painters, mastic-ers(?!)
Rigging for live events is my bread and butter and that can be really interesting. Again there are boring bits like repetitive arena or rock and roll rigging but I enjoy automation rigging - building the systems that fly performers and scenery across stadiums for opening ceremonies like the London 2012 olympics or Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014.
I also do event carpentry but this is often just knocking flats and staging together with a rattle gun.
The UK film and television industry is booming, with Netflix, Sky, Disney all building or buying studios and I believe there’s plenty work around for skilled chippies, riggers, scenic artists, special effects techs. It’s all been very nepotistic but I think that’s getting less and less the more studios that open.
In summary,
Head for heights: rigging is great fun if you get into the right industry sector.
And/or theatre or film scenery/special effects/carpentry courses and apprenticeships would be great, highly skilled and potentially lead to pretty well paid jobs.
This might be a good starter to find out if interested in the technical side of theatre industry (and the event industry as a whole to some extent)
https://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/learn-explore/young-people/young-technicians/
https://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/learn-explore/young-people/young-technicians/
naughtymoose
Established Member
Dave, just a thought.
Given that working in a "Trade" is a major uphill battle for women (see comments above) how about suggesting to your grand-niece that she starts off doing woodwork as a hobby?
That way, she can learn through YouTube and reading, whilst having a go herself. Perhaps help to get her started with some hand tools and/or get her to hang out with you on occasion?
If she can get a job, any job, that pays the rent etc., then she may be able to develop her hobby into something greater whilst actually being able to put food on the table.
Colin
Given that working in a "Trade" is a major uphill battle for women (see comments above) how about suggesting to your grand-niece that she starts off doing woodwork as a hobby?
That way, she can learn through YouTube and reading, whilst having a go herself. Perhaps help to get her started with some hand tools and/or get her to hang out with you on occasion?
If she can get a job, any job, that pays the rent etc., then she may be able to develop her hobby into something greater whilst actually being able to put food on the table.
Colin
My advice to a 14/15 year old is to keep their future options wide open, rather than narrow them down. Does she have the facilities to do some woodworking at home? If so, I suggest that she should make small items, which are essentially 'apprentice's pieces' showing off her skills, yet portable to take to an interview if required. It could be two identical pieces, one made entirely with hand tools, another using machines. At her age there is no need to get into the fine distinctions between 'woodwork', 'carpentry', 'joinery', 'cabinet making' etc.
Thank you to those that used the word 'luthier', I had to look it up - stringed musical instrument maker.
Thank you to those that used the word 'luthier', I had to look it up - stringed musical instrument maker.
pe2dave
Established Member
Yes, solid advice and she has time to do that. Thanks.
pe2dave
Established Member
Some good points @simonridout thanks.
